Podcast Session #113 – Scott Sandland on Hypnotic Evolution

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Founder of the HypnoThoughts website, Scott Sandland returns to the program this week to talk about how we began in this profession and what we have become as we continue to practice and discover our own voice, style, and approach. He explains the value of technique, process, theme, and continual learning, Scott also mentions how evolution plays a big role in getting results and creating lasting changes in your client’s lives.

Together with Richard Clark, Scott shares updates on the HypnoThoughts Live 2017 Convention. It is a much-anticipated conference that offers not only much learning, but also great opportunities to connect with the rest of the hypnosis community.

“Setting expectation and managing expectation is one of the most important things a hypnotist should learn how to do.” – Scott Sandland

  • Why Scott thinks expectation is significant in the hypnotic process
  • Defining expectation-to-ritual ratio and its relevance to you and the client
  • Why you can get better response when you establish a good rapport with your clients
  • The setbacks of copying the technique of other hypnotists
  • Things that speed up the process of finding and developing your own “voice”
  • What soft skills are and how they help you become better, unique, and authentic
  • Why evolution is all about adaptation
  • How you can work smart to achieve work-life balance
  • Things you can do to continue learning and progressing
  • Updates on the upcoming HypnoThoughts Live 2017 convention in August

Join us at HypnoThoughts Live 2017!

With 170 awesome presenters and more than 300 hours of meaty learning, there are tons of surprises in store for you at this much-awaited convention:

Hypno Thoughts Live

I will be offering a two-day post-conference event called Hypnotic Products, which is about creating content and how you can build a massive, profitable, and passive income.

Join me on Friday note as I’ll be delivering the keynote presentation at this event, plus Friday will be the first ever HypnoBowl, a bowling tournament created to knit the hypnosis community closer together in a fun way.

If you enjoyed today’s episode, please send us your valuable feedback!

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Podcast Episode Transcripts:

Disclaimer: Transcripts were generated automatically and may contain inaccuracies and errors.


This is the Work Smart Hypnosis podcast, session number 113, Scott Sandlin on Hypnotic evolution. Welcome to the Work Smart Hypnosis Podcast with Jason Lynette, your professional resource for hypnosis training and outstanding business success. Here’s your host, Jason Lynette. So allow me to paint the picture for you right now.

It’s Monday and it is right after the Hypno Expo 2017, the I Act, I M D H A Hypnosis Convention and Daytona Beach, Florida. A great three days getting to connect with Robert and Linda Otto and spending time with a lot of the great hypnosis trainers that were here at this event, which leads directly into this late night conversation that honestly began by the swimming pool and then began to transition into a hotel room and as was promised to become only about a 20 minute conversation.

An hour and 20 minutes later, here we go. Uh, previous guest on the program, Scott Sandlin, who, uh, if you’re counting, was on the program before, both on sessions number 35 and 37, back in the days where we used to do two partners, and now we give you it all at once. In this conversation, Scott and I get into some themes of hypnotic evolution.

If you’ve followed Scott’s story as the founder of the Hypno Thoughts website and along with Richard Clark launching the Hypno Thoughts Live convention, in many ways it’s that concept as he would put it out there as evolution, not revolution. What is that next phase of what we do? And the conversation began originally in terms of how we get into this profession and then what we eventually become.

As we discover our own voice, our own style, our own approach, though you’re gonna hear us get into themes of working with addictions, working in difficult scenarios, rethinking the models of rapport, what is the value of technique versus process versus theme, and then of course an outstanding update on the hypno thoughts live convention.

To learn more about that event, head over to HT live.net. It’s where all the details are. There’s more than 170 presenters, Uh, hundreds of hours of training and just an outstanding event stick around afterwards. Of course, for hypnotic products, that’s the two day post-conference offering that I’ve got, which is all about content creation, how to build a massive, profitable passive income stream.

So check those both [email protected] and then stick around afterwards for hypnotic products. As you might have guessed, hypnotic products. Dot com. And with that, let’s jump right in. Listen to this entire thing several times. So many amazing moments. This is session number 113 Scott Sandlin on Hypnotic Evolution.

So there’s a theme that you and I have talked about a couple of times here, which is that of expectation and its power inside of the hypnotic process. Just briefly, what are your thoughts on that? Uh, I think it’s actually incredibly important. I, uh, I have a thing that I teach to all my students that I call the expectation to ritual ratio, and it’s an inversely proportional ratio where the more expectation.

The client has the less ritual the hypnotist actually has to do, uh, and vice versa. So when the client has a low level of expectation, the hypnotist has to do a lot more. So I believe setting expectations and managing expectations is one of the most important things that hypnotist should learn how to do.

I’d share. There’s a, there’s a side of that, which is where I got my real start in hypnosis. Uh, by way of network marketing. I would go out into the community, I’d go to a bni, I’d go to a Chamber of commerce, I’d talk about hypnosis, and that was working really well. That’s how I packed the office the first month, though the experience was, at the same time, I was learning the mechanisms of what now drives everything that I do, how to make the internet work, how to make the videos in such a way that they get a response.

And the reason that I left a lot of that networking community is perhaps in some way related to what you just brought up there, if they were coming in by way of referral. Mm-hmm. , I had to sell hypnosis. Yes. If I had someone coming in because of the streams that I had built, it was a seven or eight minute phone call and they were coming into the office.

Exactly. It’s. If you set up expectation, right, it means you don’t have to work as hard and you know, with H P T I or I mean other things that I’ve got going on, I see a lot of new hypnotists right now and uh, like these last five, six years, I’ve seen a lot of hypnotists that are still have fundamental kind of early stages.

And I watch how much effort they put in and it, it’s really, maybe it’s cuz I’ve got a kid, but it’s a lot like Kung fu Panda. Um, like you watch like all the other characters in K like the Tiger or whatever the, or the grasshopper or the snake. Like there’s, they’re training so hard to be the best snake or the best Tiger and Mastery Uwe or whoever, like the ones who are really good, they don’t have to try hard.

And they’ve just got it. And, and you watch new hypnotist versus experienced hypnotist. And the experienced hypnotist don’t have to work as hard to get better results. And it’s because they know how to do this thing. Uh, and they know how to generate that belief. And some of it’s just because they’ve earned a reputation.

Mm-hmm. . Um, but some of it’s because they’ve learned how to set things up so that everything else is easy later. Well, I think anybody who’s ever just simply the experience of a referral and a qualified referral, that is you. I may have a guy right now who the languages as people come into the office and he’s the one who prompted them to say this.

Wow, you got Victor to quit smoking. He’s. . Mm-hmm. , this is gonna be great. And Victor is the guy giving them the language to say, No, seriously, three pack a day smoker. All this stuff is now gone. And to hear that they’re coming in, it kind of relates to, I still to this day do stage hypnosis. Right. And there are schools now.

I just did a school for the 10th year in a row. I don’t have to work there. No. I, I go in, It’s a different set of kids every year. It’s an event where only seniors are allowed to go, but because the event is always in late April, early May, they know Jason Lynette’s coming. They’ve been telling the story.

And so the dangerous way to ask the question is, there’s a balance to this. Of course. Sure. The hypnotist with mediocre techniques with outstanding power of expectation, or the hypnotist with no expectation, but outstanding techniques, which will get the better response. Hmm. I mean, that’s really. All things being equal.

They should be equal. All things being equal. Uh, my answer is it would go to, uh, a third factor. The, the, the tiebreaker is relationship. Yes. And if that person can generate a, a healthy, uh, call it, uh, therapeutic relationship with the client, that’s the one that wins. Mm-hmm. . Um, cause that is sort of the third factor in the whole thing.

Right. Um, although that also plays into expectation. It does because I’m mean, I can, I can jokingly refer to, as people walk into my office, there’s the wall candy. Mm-hmm. , they walk down the long hallway, they see their certificates, awards certificates, and that’s all there. They come into the office, they see awards, they see things that are there.

Though at the same time, it’s still from my side of things, it’s the power of online video is what drives a lot of what I do. And they’ve been built, I call it the Wilson Willie Nelson Effect. They’ve been building that relationship with me. So then when my mother’s there at Mother’s Day watching Willie Nelson at concert mm-hmm.

she already knew him. Right. They were picking up a conversation that she had been having, but he entered live for the first time. Yeah. So it’s where that rapport can be built in different ways and that is part of that expectation model. It absolutely is. Uh, and I, I think there actually are hypnotists who actually aren’t very good at fundamentals, like of actual techniquey stuff.

Mm-hmm. , I think there are hypnotists actually that are. Not very good at the fundamentals, like the really technique hands on, but they’ve generated a brand for themselves and they know how to foster that, and they absolutely get away with it for a long time. Mm-hmm. , Uh, I think a, an example of that, uh, can sometimes be, you know, franchises or things like that where the actual person doing the work or somebody who has a bunch of hypnotist working for ’em, uh, where the hypnotists don’t have to be any good if the brand is strong.

And I think that’s actually, uh, happened quite a bit, uh, uh, in our industry over the last few years. Although there’s another side of that, which is that when we’re in that filter of going, it has to be this way when we’re so laser focused on technique, right? That’s where it’s too easy to fall prey to the game of it’s either right or it’s wrong.

As opposed to, Well that happens. Let’s see what happens. It’s the tets line deal with what emerges right of whatever happens is what should happen. The client’s cell phone was supposed to go off in this session. Today is my mindset. The car alarm should keep going today, and that’s exactly what it should be.

Well, a good hypnotist. Yeah, I mean, a good hypnotist obviously can utilize that kind of stuff and, and, and be able to roll with that. And, and obviously like with you and I, because we got started in this so early, like the first couple hundred people I hypnotized were in dorm rooms. Mm-hmm. . So that’s a completely uncontrollable environment.

Um, and so I was really comfortable just rolling with that and, and being able to, now I’m such a spoiled brat about like where I hypnotize people, you know, like I have like my. Climate controlled, silent, all that office, and I never, I never even, uh, considered that an option or even a luxury early on.

Mm-hmm. . Um, but, uh, I’m kind of getting away from the, the point of the question. No, there’s a theme inside of it of just let, let’s bring it back and let’s maybe we pull some action steps out. Yeah. Yeah. To take what you know. Now, back to when you got started mm-hmm. , what would you have done differently in the beginning phases?

Well, it depends on what phase of beginning phases you’re talking about. Right? If we are, if we’re saying like, at the onset, right? Like, so in, in the first, you know, in the first six months, nine months of what I was doing, . One of the things I, I’ve been really fortunate with mentors, and I’ve been really fortunate with mentors who’ve pulled me into really, uh, good clinical professional angles.

Um, I think I left stage stuff a little early. Mm-hmm. , um, because I got pulled into clinical so much that a lot of the, a lot of the demonstration stuff and a lot of the, the big convincer stuff. And I still do some of that. And I’ve, I’ve done a bunch of, uh, high school AP psych classes. Mm-hmm. , you know, a similar thing where I like a reoccurring, you know, every year I go into the same AP psych class and they know I’m coming and they’re excited about it.

Um, and so I’ll do, you know, phenomenon and, uh, demonstration stuff, but I think I got away from that. And I, I think that there really is, uh, a great business value to that. And even though it translated for me into, uh, like surgical stuff and clinical stuff, um, I think I would’ve, I would recommend to myself, uh, don’t lose that.

Mm-hmm. . Well, it’s where again, I, I’d point to a similar thing that I started with very absolute minded training. Okay. I’d say, um, and the mindset of this is the one way to do it. If you do it this way, you’re gonna get results. If you don’t do it this way, you’re not gonna get permanent results. And getting into just the relationship, getting into, uh, my, my real position nowadays is that the client comes in and they’re going to feed you everything that you.

And if Yeah, absolutely. And it’s, it’s the game of, No, but I wanna play this game. And instead they’re bringing their model. So for me it’s just this mindset of, and it really perhaps goes back to the stage hypnosis experience, cuz that’s where I started and that’s where I stayed for the first couple of years.

Mm-hmm. , I was the. I was the smart ass in Sean Michael Andrew certification class going, I’m not gonna do this therapy crap. I wanted the certificates so I can charge more for my shows. Right. And now it’s almost all that I do. So it was that mindset that you’re in the show and you have to deal with it.

You, it’s whatever is gonna happen is gonna happen. And, and there’s the training aspect of sometimes this is the one way. And just to, to have had that moment where to lose the faith a little earlier somewhere. So none of my training was that way. I, it, it’s interesting cause I, I had the exact opposite of that.

All of my training early on was very, well, I don’t know, see what you do. And it was not outcome based and it was, it was completely unstructured. Uh, so I, uh, yeah I had, I had the exact antithetical mm-hmm. , uh, to that. Nice, Nice. So then inside of that, We were having a dialogue before we turned on the, uh, microphones here about how there’s the style change.

Yeah. How what works for one person may not work for someone else. Yeah. This is something I’ve been actually watching also. I mean, you know, going to all the conferences I’ve been to over 50 hypnosis conferences now, and now obviously having hypno thoughts live. I, we have 170 presenters this year, which is huge.

Uh, and so I, I have to watch a lot of, uh, hypnosis and, and it’s important to us to have new hypnotists and, and to get variety and different topics and all that. And it’s so interesting to watch, uh, even in demonstration, but definitely also with the school watching different, uh, professionals. Yeah, there, there are definitely hypnotists that do things that I would never be able to pull off.

Not because they’re better than me, uh, or I’m better than them, but just stylistically they can’t do it. And the best way I can explain it is, uh, with like standup comedy mm-hmm. , you know, there, there were things that Robin Williams could do that no other comedian would be able to pull off. There are, uh, there are jokes that Louis CK can say that other people can’t say.

Chris Rock said things on TV that would get a lot of people fired. Um, and there’s an ability where you earn and then, and they did . Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, and there’s this, you earn the right to say things and you generate an audience that expects that from you mm-hmm. . And so, you know, uh, I went and saw, you know, a comedian that, that you would know.

I don’t know if a lot of the listeners, listeners were, but I saw Bill Burr. Yeah. And, and he was talking about some of the stuff and you know, he is got this, uh, angry component to what he’s doing, and he’s ranting, inventing, and it’s, it’s clever and it’s funny. But my, my then girlfriend, she’s now my wife, but she was my girlfriend at the time.

It was one of our first dates. And he’s saying this aggressive stuff, and, and she hadn’t opted in, right? She didn’t buy in to that persona. And so, you know, to her, he hadn’t earned that yet, even though professionally he had mm-hmm. . So I, there’s, there’s two sides to that, right? Like, so he had earned the right to use those jokes with his audience, but she wasn’t in his audience, right?

And so she hadn’t, they hadn’t created that relationship. And so I think there are these personas that happen where, uh, you know, you, you take somebody who’s really good at what they do in their world, in their audience. I know, let’s take Melissa Tears. She’s great at what she does. Uh, if my client saw Melissa Tears, I don’t know how well it would work.

I mean, I’m sure she can do good things when she’s versatile and she’s smart. Absolutely. But it would be different, uh, when I refer people out, I’m very aware of this. I, when I refer people to Michael Elner, I will say he is very different mm-hmm. than I am. And his style is different. So don’t expect me for, I’d say that I’m similar in mind that there’s the occasional moment where someone calls and they want a referral, and it’s where they might be the, they probably in, in my world, I’m very impatient on the technical side, uh, which is an advent of how I outsource so much of what I do, if I’m gonna get frustrated trying to figure it out.

So it, it’s the vampire rule for me with Skype sessions. If you do not introduce the idea of working remotely, I don’t bring it up. Okay. Because I think to the number of times that I’ve had to with family members, No, the red. No, the red button . Right. Right. So it’s where I won’t bring that up unless that’s the fit.

And very often they are calling in our modern era and saying, No, I’m in this state. I want to work with you though. It’s where most of the referrals that I would make, I’d say in a similar note, are based on style. Mm-hmm. based on approach as opposed to they, it’s rare to have the client call up and request a specific technique.

Right. That will happen. Sometimes though, in most cases it’s through the dialogue. You know, there have been moments where I can point to a story of someone who was in New York City and I specifically pointed out, um, oddly enough, all people who have been on this program, uh, I pointed out Michael Elner, I pointed out Melissa Tier, Mark Carlin, you know, call any of these three, They’re fantastic.

Sure. Well, will I get the same result? Well, they’re all gonna be very different techniques and approaches. Those three are very different. And you’re gonna end up at the same finish line. Right, Right. And. And there is something to be said for matchups, right? Mm-hmm. , you know, so, and, and some of that soft skill, and some of that’s just relationship, but all three of them, obviously, because they’re pros and they’ve got, you know, just the reps, they know how to use their style mm-hmm.

but they wouldn’t try to use the other persons. Right. Melissa wouldn’t try to be Michael, Michael wouldn’t try to be Mark, uh, Cetera. Um, and if they did, they would get significantly worse results. Right? And, and so I, I, I have this interesting thing with dti, right? Deep trans identification where you can, you can grab from somebody, but you have to internalize it.

Like at at H P T I, we have an internship class that we do throughout the year. So every Thursday night we get together and, uh, you know, there’s a case study. So someone talks about their client, what they’re seeing, what they’re doing and, and all that. And, uh, when they’re going through the parts class, Everyone thinks parts and regression is what needs to be done for this client.

And then they do the Melissa Tears class and everyone thinks we need to swear at this person, . And then they go to the, you know, they go to the non guard class and it’s all, you know, dialectical behavioral therapy or, or whatever it is. Um, acceptance and commitment therapy. P and, and it, it takes them months.

I mean, the, a year long program, it takes ’em to like month six or seven, uh, ish before they’ve internalized enough variety that they’re developing their own voice. Mm-hmm. and, and then different students are giving different advice based on their own thoughts, not based on the class that’s happening right now in parallel, that that’s a huge thing.

And I think it’s how it’s so easy to, again, what is hypnosis? We’re modeling excellence. What’s going on in the process of the client and how often. The same themes would pop into our sessions. Mm-hmm. , you know, this work today. Wow. I’m using this with every client this week now. Right. You know, what’s the flavor of the week this time?

So instead to get to that place of, it’s taking that entire experience, what is it that expedites that mindset, do you think, in terms of being able to get in? And it’s a similar theme, the, the last two times you were on here mm-hmm. , the, the concept of finding that voice. Yeah. Was it something that just arrived or something that was pointed in that place?

I think it needs to be developed. I think there’s, there is just, it’s a synthesis and repetitions and exposure. Mm-hmm. . Um, and it’s like everything else. It’s like tying your shoes and riding a bike and everything else. Reps matter. Mm-hmm. and exposure to different schools of thought, exposure to different styles, ex and, and practicing each one and trying them on.

Uh, and so I guess that could be a deep trans identification process, um, though, not exclusively, but, and then developing stylistically. what you can do. That goes back to that whole expectation to ritual. It goes back to setting up, uh, a persona. Yeah. You know, and, and my persona with my clients is very different than my personality with my family.

Mm-hmm. . Right. And it, and it is my professional persona that generate, that I’ve generated over time that it’s kind of created a life for itself. Um, you know, just through referrals in my community and all that, uh, that I put on when I enter the office, because that is what my clients expect. And I, and I think that’s, you know, not.
Shocking. And I think that’s probably normal for a lot of professional hypnotists to have, you know, that sort of persona that they put on. That’s this, you know, wizard, hypnotist, magician that’s gonna save the world and help these people. Well, again, I keep referencing the, the quote, it was a French magician and the 18 hundreds, John Eugene, Robert Huan, cuz that’s a name.

Mm-hmm. . And the experience of the quote was, the magician is really the actor playing the role of the magician. Right. So it’s stepping into that, which from any hypnosis training. Well, most of them might say, go into the thought of, well, who’s the first person you hypnotize? Yourself, and if we wanted to say that we’re always in some sort of state of trance, there is that, for me, it’s more of a heightened state of who I am.

Yeah. You know, it’s the aspects of we don’t have to be perfect as the person to help the client, yet I am stepping into that version of me that really doesn’t have the flaws that I am accepting and flaws I’ve worked on. It’s stepping into that place where the moment the thing is said. How can we trust that reality?

What can we now do about this? My my whole approach these days is the same map into the problem is the same map out, and the same reasons why you can’t do this for yourself are the same reasons you absolutely can, where there’s no wrong answer at any point. So I just had this flashback that I, I think really fits something we actually talking about, you know, two minutes ago.

But if I, I can’t help but share it. Um, I was in a class that Jerry Kind, uh, was teaching and obviously he, he just passed away. He was, he was wonderful. Um, and, you know, he was teaching his regression of, Cause Stephanie was teaching, you know, the hits mm-hmm. and I was sitting next to Michael Elner and I was, I was maybe, maybe seven or eight years into my career, so I, I was somewhere.

Um, but obviously Jerry is, you know, exalted for a reason and so. I was taking notes and I was writing things down, and Michael grabs the pen out of my hand, crosses off a line and says, This is all bull. and then he writes, This is Jerry’s style. I have my style, you need yours, and you’ve already found it.

Don’t try to be Jerry. Mm-hmm. . And which to be fair, that same story could be changed out for any trainer, for any interaction. It’s not just that one school of thought. No. No, of course not. Of course not. And you know, I, I did the same thing with Paul Durban trying to be Paul Durban. And no one should try to be Paul Durban

Uh, I don’t know if you ever encountered him. Never had a live interaction. No. Wonderful, wonderful. Gentle man. Uh, but no one can be mm-hmm. . I mean, he was more like Colombo in a lot of ways. . Um, but yeah, I mean, which I wanna stay on this topic. Yeah. But on the business side mm-hmm. , there’s an interaction that I had again, with the same person recently that had said something to me three years ago, which was the, from a place of real concern.

Jason, you’re teaching everything that you’re doing. Um, we’re here recording. It’s the Sunday night after the I M D H A I act, uh, Hypno Expo Convention. Yep. And in one of the workshops, I walked through an exact Facebook marketing campaign that I’m using to get a lot of weight loss clients. And that thing is running right now.

Yeah. And it’s where there was a guy who lives 20 miles down the road from me, and he of course could go home and do the exact same thing. Yes. Tonight. Yes. His flight’s already probably landed back in Virginia. And I never mean this statement from an arrogant position. I teach exactly what I’ve done because you can’t do it the way that I’ve done it.

Right. And you shouldn’t. Exactly. Yeah. If we copy paste too, literally it doesn’t translate, it doesn’t cross map. It’s the instructor’s mindset to share, in my opinion, the insane level of detail and thinking and logic behind what we do. So then the student is able to make that decision for themself. So I interviewed Steve g Jones a few years ago, uh, with uh, when non guard and I were doing our, our Sunday nights.

And one of my first questions to Steve was, Teach me how to put you outta business. Yeah. You’ve made all this money. Just tell me, exec, what do I need to do to be better than you at what you do so that you can’t compete with me and I crush your business? And he said, and he loved the question. I mean, he comes from a place of abundance and success and all that stuff.

So he’s just said yes and dove in and outlined what he does and how he runs his business and. I think a lot of people are surprised with that level of authenticity and, and generosity of sharing like you did, uh, in your class. But the truth is, you know, as well as I do, you can give them exact written yes.

Explained video step by step. And the only way for them to do it well is for them to synthesize that information and make the appropriate changes for them. Mm-hmm. . And that’s the only way this really works? Yeah. In all of it. Although inside of it, I mean, it’s not the statement that someone can’t do it, of course not.

Though sometimes it is that aspect of, again, through the modeling, what is it we can do? So online videos the favorite topic of mine. It works really well for me and inside of one of the communities I run, here’s a moment where people are putting up their videos for feedback and the teaching moment was that the actor Jack Lemon would always use the phrase magic time.

Before he would start a take, the director would say magic. The director would say, Action. Jack Lemon, Thero, Walter Math out crazy apparently, which is probably why he did it more. Sure. Action. Magic time. And he’d launch into it. And, uh, who was it? Hank’s area. Mm-hmm. , uh, the voice of a P Right. Did a team. The voice of a lot of things.

A lot of things. Yeah. Did the, did the movie, tv, movie of the book Tuesdays with Morrie. Mm-hmm. , which is where Jack Lemon is playing a character who is dying. Mm-hmm. . And he goes, I could not keep a straight face because you know, action magic time. And then there’s just the most dramatic moment possible.

Right. Which from that story, I really unpacked something that I was doing because online videos, the thing that people think, Oh, it’s so polished, it’s so put together. The truth is you’re seeing the last three minutes of a 20 minute take. Exactly. And sometimes it is the moment of yelling ex, you know, some sort of expletive.

I was just about to say, the fact every one of my best takes is. Uh, proceeded by swearing. Yes. Right. And like, maybe even jumping up and down and going All right. Yeah. And get it out there. Yeah. Swearing a bunch and then going, All right. And then you just say it. And that’s your high energy. Good Take that connects, which let’s call it a hypnotic anger and make anchor and make it sound more professional.

It does sound way better about, I wanna rewind back to something that you brought up that I know, I know the theme of it, but I don’t think it’s ever been discussed on this program. Soft skills. Soft skills. Yeah. So, um, soft skills are things that aren’t related directly to hypnosis, right? So, you know, being able to do rapid inductions, it would be considered a hard skill.

Uh, but soft skills are nuanced things that are taken from other areas of, uh, of life really. So it’s just having life skills, having street smarts, having experienced enough things that you’ve developed, abilities to interact with people, connect with people, generate rapport, uh, that, that, although they aren’t hypnosis, they.

they apply in your ability to do your job well. Mm-hmm. . Uh, so an example would be, you know, somebody who has a, a past career of being in sales. Okay. Well, there’s probably some, uh, skills they’ve developed about just how to get appointments or how to shake hands or how to meet people or how to make eye contact.

All those little things that, uh, mean they don’t have to learn them in hypnosis and, and they just make generating rapport in this case. Mm-hmm. , uh, easier. So what soft skills, I mean, is it a matter of seeking them out, would you say? Or using everything at your disposal to go into that session ready for the process?

Recognizing which ones you have. Right. You know, recognizing what resources you really do have. I mean, for me, I know the, the skills that I rely on the most, uh, in, in my practice are a few things. Number one, I, I have really good state control. I’m really good at being, having good boundaries and state control no matter what the client I really do.

I have clients who are, who are murderers, and I have clients who, uh, you know, have. Been the victims of horrible, violent things. It’s just, I work in drug rehab centers and so that’s a thing. Or I, I walk into ’em and somebody has burns over 80% of their body. I mean it’s, you know, it’s, it’s dramatic things.

And so my ability to have boundaries and stay control is important. My other big skill is pacing. And I’m really good at these two things. And so I know I’m going to lean heavily on both of those, uh, before I’m gonna lead or before I’m gonna do anything else. And that’s my style. Uh, I know there’s other people who are really good at being paint by number, and I don’t mean that in a pejorative at all.

No, no. There are people who are very process and procedural and so they know they’re gonna go in and they can say eight minutes of this, three minutes of that seven minutes, by the time we get to the 23rd minute will be here, . And, and I’m not that way. Uh, I know I can keep time in my head and I know in the, the hours.

without looking at my watch, but it has nothing to do with, All right, we’re at minute 13, I need to be moving on to this. Um, and so, I mean, that, that’s kind of just looping back around on this thing we’ve been talking about a lot is stylistically what someone’s soft skills are. Mm-hmm. , uh, helps ’em create the environment that they want to create in their office.

And I think there’s a lot of people who try to be their instructor, uh, with a different set of soft skills and a different set of life experience, and it just doesn’t. And so often that lack of confidence, I’d say, is there, there’s a balance to this because in one side of things, we need that model to get started.

Mm-hmm. , we need something to follow. You’ve at least, uh, I, I think indirectly, you and I have both referenced waiting for Goman this weekend. Yes. Uh, in multiple cases. Uh, and there’s a scene where the musical director played by Bob Balland is saying to the, uh, actors, this is a movie that proves you need to have good actors to play bad actors.

Right. And the moment of the moment of musical direction in this movie, it’s done. If you don’t know the movie, it’s, uh, Be Waiting for Goman. It’s done by Christopher Guest. Same guy behind Spinal Tap. Best in Show. He. Directing the actors, Well, you’re going to eventually learn the song so well that you’re going to forget it.

So let’s just skip the process of learning it and just begin singing And three, four and . And of course the, they’re there, they don’t know the song yet. You’ve got to learn something. And it’s the, you have to, in some way appreciate the structure to then break the structure. Yeah. You have to know the rules to then break the rules and know why you’re breaking the rules.

Exactly, Yeah. And I remember trying to be other hypnotists, right? I, I remember trying to be Mark Cunningham or, or Janet Macy or Michael Elner, or you know, a number of Jim Duncan, a number of other people. Uh, and every time I tried to be one of them, or every time I went to a training and came back and tried to do an impression of them, and I would, I would have a client and I would be doing an impression of a different hypnotist to my client and.

It was so forced. Uh, and I’m aware of that now. I was minorly aware of it then. Uh, but in retrospect, it’s so ugly. Um, and, uh, it’s so much less effective because you’re, you’re just not being authentic. You’re doing an impression of another hypnotist. And that means not only am I trying to figure out this client, I’m pretending, okay, what would I do if I were Mark Cunningham in the room with this client who is biting their nails instead of just, you know, thinking through biting their nails, Which is obviously, uh, significantly easier.

But you do need that step, right? And it, it is an awkward step, but, you know, sucking at something is the first step to being kind of good at something. . Well, I mean, it’s where inside of it we find this place. , that communication of what’s, What’s the gospel of it? What’s the principle? There’s a moment where someone who’s well known in the regression circles was talking very loudly about, you have to find the isc, you’ve gotta be inside of it.

If you don’t find it, it’s not gonna work. And then at the same event, I heard it in conversation, Well, once I find something significant and meaningful, that’s gonna be a good case for the story. I’ll branch off of that. That’ll still get the same result. Yeah. And you saw more so the gears turning where again, the techniques are only as good as they’re put into use and the techniques for a lot, again, it goes back to these people who have this reputation of using these techniques.

They can even be going through the motion of these techniques because they know the client’s expecting. Even if they know the client doesn’t need it, though, I have to flash back to the theater experience. And there’s legends around certain performances that even though you don’t know the story yet, even though you don’t know that individual, um, this class that I just did with Sean Michael Andrews out in Las Vegas, there was a student in the class that, by luck, was on the flight from Virginia, Dallas International Airport to Las Vegas with me, and it was him.

And this story is shared with every lack of ego I can possibly throw into this, though I still find it wonderfully amusing because he’s been watching my videos, he’s been listening to this program, and we’re sitting, I’m cheap, I’m flying in the backend. Coach United gave me economy plus at one point, but five four, I can’t reach my bag.

So I downgraded it back. So he’s there going, no one’s bothering you. He’s like, What? What are you talking about? Well, You’re, you’re the guy in hypnosis, right? It’s like I, we’re a small group of people. Mm-hmm. . But there’s something to be said around the, the example of the, the musical that was a stage play and then a movie.

Of course, Gentleman Preferred Blondes, that the movie was Marilyn Monroe. Mm-hmm. , the stage play was, um, Carol Channing. And the story goes that Carol Chaning, Why am I keeping going to back to the name Connie Chung? It was definitely not, definitely not Connie Chan and Gentleman, I’m, She could do it wonderfully, but not a performer.

So it was Carol Channing that the story goes, she could, she could play beautiful better than Marilyn Monroe was. That’s a good line, Which the experience that the reputation is gonna be important there. Yet there’s something back to Jerry Kind, the attitude he would teach the students of, Yeah, we do this all the time.

That’s easy, right? That it’s bringing that confidence into the process. And the most, uh, Lord of the Rings possible style quote from Dave Elman and the world of hypnosis confidence is the coin of the realm. Mm-hmm. , and I love it just for the quirkiness of that phrase, but it’s how you find that moment where to watch the performer on stage, you know, And that the phrase would be the audience can smell fear, right?

Right. But you can also tell this person is clearly good at what they do and they’re comfortable at it and, and comfortable with it. Right. And, and just being able to do that, um, and just being able to own it. So. Mm-hmm. , I had, uh, an intern shadowing me, uh, the other day, uh, so intern sitting in my office, uh, watching me with a client.

And, uh, at the end of one of the sessions, you know, the client leaves and the intern looks at me. Whoa, . And I go The silence. Huh? She goes, You were so quiet. And I go, Yeah, Because in that session, there were, there were entire 32nd pauses where I was just letting things sit and just letting it be uncomfortable because it, I don’t think, I think it’s really important for our jobs not to just go from comfort, to comfort, to comfort.

There has to be catharsis, which means there has to be, you know, a sense of resolution, which means if you back up, there needs to be something that needs to be resolved, which means, you know, you, you take them on a journey. Um, and to paint the picture, are we talking inside of the actual hypnotic process?

Okay. So pre, uh, during an intake, uh, and during the hypnosis, I. They’ll say something that’s upsetting, they’ll say something that’s provocative, they’ll say something that is an epiphany. Mm-hmm. . And I’ll just sit there and let that land in the room and just let it be there. Right. And that’s a, a, uh, I got that from David Koff, uh, who we were talking about at, at dinner.

Uh, he wrote a book, the couple who became each other, which I think is excellent. And then he, he’s got these recording. It’s nice that are really good too. Um, but this ability just to have these pregnant pauses and just let the person sit with the comfort and not rescue them from it, uh, it requires a lot of confidence in one’s self to just sit there as the professional and not rescue them.

Uh, and not, not save the moment from being weird, but let the weirdness be there and let them work through that in that moment, in this safe space of an office, whatever that means, Which goes against a lot of what we’re often trained around. We have to build rapport. We have to get them to like us, which I.

Would say that that comfort, that relationship is absolutely critical though. There’s something about not building rapport with the undesired state. Yeah. Or there’s moments where you’re very often the first person, they’re saying some of these things too. Mm-hmm. . And even that alone is hypnotic in nature because now, Oh, that’s what I’ve been thinking, That’s how I’ve been viewing this.

And it creates this interesting dynamic, right. You know, where you do have this, you know, I don’t know, just one up position of authority on them. And so not reaching out to rescue them, but just letting those things sit. Uh, it keeps you in that authority position. And I think there’s a lot of people who have, who.

Come to terms with their own, I’ll call it greatness. Mm-hmm. . Um, which sounds egotistic, but I don’t mean it that way. Uh, you have to be comfortable with the fact that you can be great at this before you can be great at this. Um, and you have to be comfortable with that and own that in the room with confidence and humility and all those other things.

But there has to be that confidence. Like you said, they can smell fear. And the reason a lot of hypnotists will rescue that moment and not let that pause live is because they’re not okay with it and they don’t want to be naked. And pause. Mm. And so they prevent the client from being naked so they won’t be naked too.

Um, which by the way, that sentence out of context, amazing , there’s a lot of podcasts that pull like one quote, something really meaningful and they uses one use that as the intro rather than how I do it. Um, this might be the no stay with the standard . We might, yeah. They might be worth, But there’s the title of it.

They go on your, But no, there is that thing right where uh, where these hypnotists or these people who are new with any therapeutic or counseling profession, they don’t want that moment of just pure mutual exposure. So they fill the space by talking and they don’t give the client that space. And it really does take something just, I mean, reps in just kind of knowing yourself and being okay with it to do it.

But my intern was really uncom. and she, she was freaking out and like crawling in her skin in a couple of these moments cuz we were talking about stuff that was, you know, uh, provocative, let’s say. Which to be fair, there’s also moments where just to bring some lingo into it, we’re in that metamodel, we’re asking questions and sometimes by asking the question at the right time, It’s going to create that moment intentionally too, where absolutely.

You know, any slight of mouth pattern is gonna get them to shift that belief structure and realize, oh wait, it’s, It’s where I have a recent example that again, we could often get caught up in the story. Mm-hmm. , she’s in my office, she wants to quit smoking, and for the first 10 minutes it’s my ex-boyfriend, this horrible relationship.

The guy turned out to be married with a family and basically lied the whole way through. And this somehow went on for nine months as part of the story. And this is every reason why I’ve been smoking this much. And it just took that one simple moment of a question to go, Okay, but you were a pack and a half a day smoker before you met this guy, right?

Yeah. Oh, and just to let that moment sit. Yeah. Just to let that moment just linger rather than No, I have to sit like you’re sitting, I have to use your words, but to call her on this, I mean it. It’s a rationalization, right? Mm-hmm. , you know, it, it’s just her rationalizing a behavior and you just say, No, you don’t get to do that here.

Not rudely, but that’s what you did, right? I mean, you, you elegantly said, Uh, that’s bullshit. And she had to just sit there and go, It is an oh. Mm-hmm. . Hmm. So the last nine minutes of me telling you this story has nothing to do with these cigarettes. Yeah. That’s something that you talked about this weekend in terms of working with addiction.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it has to be, I mean, because so much of, uh, working with people who are overcoming addiction is helping them get out of the idea that they’re the victim of the story, because you need to get the person into a statement in anything, uh, where they can be the hero in their story. I don’t understand why we wouldn’t want to be the hero of our own story, uh, be the protagonist.

Um, and, uh, part of addiction is believing and, and becoming accustomed to being in this reactive mode where you are just, you know, you are the pretty girl in the horror movie, just running away from whatever shows up, uh, without any sense of purpose and not running towards anything. Uh, and so helping these people to respectfully call them out on that and point out the ability and resources and opportunities they have to be hero.

In a realistic everyday way, which to do it properly actually can often build better rapport because it’s, than the rapport techniques, because it’s respectful. Right. You know, I, I, this is, this is gonna sound totally screwed up, but this is the way I talk to them. I say, Look, I am not gonna treat you like you just got third place in the Special Olympics.

Okay? And I know people like it works. Um, I say, I say, Look, I, I’ve worked at the Special Olympics. I’m allowed to say that. Um, I said, Look, I’m not gonna treat you like you just got third place in the Special Olympics. I’m gonna pat you on the head. So you’re doing great. You’re not doing great. You know, you’re stealing and selling meth.

That’s not great. You’ve committed violent crime. You kids have been taken away from you. No. And you’re telling me I’m doing the best I can. This is not the best you can, and I’m not gonna let you say that. And other people let you off the hook when you say, Well, I’m doing the best I can. No, you’re. You’re doing the best you’ve been doing and that’s nowhere near the best you possibly could.

And that’s a horrible thing to say about yourself. And I’m not gonna let you cop out on both of us right now, and I’m not gonna let you off easy. And when I say that and I mean it res and I mean it sincerely, then we just let that sit and they then have to decide, oh, uh, this goes to a dialogue. Uh, you met a former student of mine over this weekend too that Oh yeah.

Was running into an issue and we’ll keep it general cuz don’t have her permission to tell the story though. Her names are rhymes with No, nevermind. , uh, you know, it’s, it’s a client that basically now the end of the story, first it turns out this client has been successful as a weight loss client. Right.

Right. But just you find that place where nothing is. Nothing is going as it should, which I’d even bring in the simplistic nature of the more everyday occurrence for the hypnotist. Outside of the working with the meth addict is not something most of us do. I haven’t done that. Sure. Uh, the ones that I’ve seen the most extreme has been the, uh, the guy who claimed he was addicted to cocaine, asked his doctor to be admitted, and when he found out that he was only using once a month, doctor laughed at him.

Right. And then gave him my business card. Or here’s the one that she’s now been off heroin for several months. So your specialty is one that I’ve really not worked inside of, though. It goes to the example of, I hear this all the time. I gave the client the hypnosis audio program that was only 10 minutes long and they didn’t listen to it all week.

Right. They hand it back to you in the cellophane still wrapped and they say, This doesn’t work. Right. Yeah. Or I taught you this technique and you didn’t use it. Right. Yeah. Where it’s where inside of that process for me, I want to have that experience where they can’t remember the craving. They can’t remember what the feeling was, and yet to be out there in the world and.

Told the story here before of, well, the Diet Coke tasted like battery acid, but I still drank it. The hypnosis didn’t work. Mm-hmm. , it’s like, well, it sounds like it actually did work. You are not working. Right. So it, it’s where I, some of my opinions have changed. It’s where I had a business product. I took off the market and then put back up under a different name because there were things in there that I didn’t agree with anymore.

Mm-hmm. , uh, anyone who has listened to this program, uh, I would challenge you to find the one that, uh, I put out there and that was the one that shifted the remainder of them. Uh, it wasn’t with you . Cause it’s a moment of going, I’ve released something that goes, that’s not what this program is. So there is an evolution to it.

So the experience that working with that client and finding that comfort to break out of the, they have to, like me, they have to have this instant rapport with me, which comes from creating that change too, comes from creating that shift. Well also think about the word e evolution, right? Because evolution is about adapt.

Right. And that’s the thing. It’s about adaptation to, uh, to challenge in obstacles, right? Uh, to the environment and the imperfections in the environment, and being able to, you know, a lot of people think evolution means, uh, becoming better and better and better. And doesn’t mean that, uh, it often becomes that, but it doesn’t have to.

Adaptation is really what evolution is all about and responding and, uh, and being more suited and being more able to rapidly adapt to be more suited to the environment. And so you look at what kind of clients you’re seeing and what is, uh, best suited for generating lasting change. Mm-hmm. , uh, because I really do believe that there are a lot of hypnotists out there that are only trying to create, uh, temporary change.

And they’re, they’re, they don’t realize they’re shooting for that, but everything they’re doing is pointing towards temporary change and then get this person away from me and out of my life so I can call, uh, them part of my success rate. And they have no. Sincere interest in making this person’s life, uh, better in the abstract, large picture.

They’re really only looking at a checkbox and then get this person away from me. Mm-hmm. . Um, and so that’s, that’s a very different thing. And so they will adapt towards that. Um, well let’s take that out of the bigger picture theme and get more specific than what is it that needs to be in that process to take it out of temporary and into lasting?

Well, it depends on, it depends on the issue. Um, but, and please just give us one simple answer. Just, you know, it has to be this one technique. It has to be, Yeah, definitely has to be a technique that I’m selling. . No, I, I think there’s a lot of people who believe that state change creates permanent change.

And I, I, I think state change creates an opportunity for permanent change to, uh, to be established. But there are, uh, there are so many hypnotists that get caught up in, you know, a really cool language pattern or really cool metamodel thing, or a really cool, you know, thing that they just learned at the conference and.

and the client opens their eyes and they’re like, Oh, I, I feel so alive and optimistic. Oh, well then you clearly don’t have clinical depression anymore. You’ve been suicidal for six months. But, uh, if you feel better right now, I’m sure you’ll feel better forever. Go back under the bridge that you live in, , uh, climb back into the cardboard box and keep that smile on your face.

Right? I mean, so, so there’s an ecology check, as is my answer. Uh, the ecology check of looking at how sustainable is this in the reality of their life? Is the, and how much are you taking that ecology check and making sure the things that are happening in their life are reinforced or reinforcing, uh, the work you are doing?

And so it requires more thought and question asking. Than just, how do you feel right now? How did you feel before high fives for everybody? Yeah, so there’s a story of, uh, I, I, I always tell this now, is the feedback you don’t put on a website. Mm-hmm. , and it was a client that I get this email. The business, the, the situation was the husband passed away.

They had a shared business, everything was in his name, right? And the banks were pulling every dirty trick to not let her in the accounts. Successful business goes outta business, right? House goes into foreclosure because she can’t access the business, money has to move in with her sister. And the story, you gotta love her humor inside of all this, because she goes to make it the worst country music song ever.

My dog also ran away, Oh. Yet to hear the feedback of, and somehow throughout this, I knew that going through this without cigarettes would make me strong. Rather than this was every reason why us screw it up, going back to the old way. Of course. And yeah, exactly. That’s, that’s not a story that, you know, you put on, I met Jason twice to stop smoking and after my husband died, if that’s what hypnosis does, I’m not going to this guy.

Yeah. Yeah. That’s not the one that goes on the webpage. But that’s the truth is we need to work in the reality of these people’s, uh, lives, not just in laboratory conditions, right? Mm-hmm. , um, and, you know, anybody can give someone to glue their eyes shut and then just stay in a laboratory con condition mm-hmm.

and make sure you get temporary results and all that stuff. But this stuff has to stick when you’re not around. My strategy for that is that everything is an asset. agreed. Everything that comes into the process is that leverage point. So the fact that you have this diagnosis, the fact that you have this situation, the fact that, um, again, a recent client story, the fact that you have now completely moved out of your parents’ house at 19 years old because you failed out of college and you’re gonna now go off and do this job and this scenario sucks and all of your friends are liars and they’ve stolen your money, is every reason why you can now fill in the blank.

Right? And that’s where that lasting change, in my opinion, comes from. Rather than, You felt better today. Yes. We have to get the foot in the door. Right. To get the hope and place hope is realistic. Get that hope is realistic. Exactly. Yeah. At the same time, it’s where you’ve gotta do that scan around, although, I, Is there a point to extremes on this?

Because again, not to play this, this, this conversation here today as here’s what everyone else is doing badly. Because there was a moment where I had someone who had done a hypnotic process for stopping smoking and, um, fill in the blank of what religion I’m referring to. It began with, give me a list of everything bad you’ve done and every moment you have cravings.

Mm-hmm. . And it was this insane list. And of course she found herself in a scenario where that wasn’t on the list. Right. And because I haven’t addressed that, the old behavior was back. Mm-hmm. . So we can leverage, but we can also get, It’s where I’d often talk about where a technique can become a process versus a theme.

What’s that mean? That we can do simple example? I could do a full, If we’re gonna talk age regression. Yeah. I’m gonna take a full age regression process, which to say that that’s really like 19 techniques that we’re stringing together. Yeah. And saying that’s age regression, but at the same time, I could just simply suggest the things you know now as if you’ve always known them and that makes you stronger.

Uh, yeah. Yes. So where it’s the thematic score rather than the actual structural process. Yes. And it becomes this dance back and forth because if they’re saying recent example, I’m gonna be hanging out with my friends this weekend, they’re all smokers. I had a guy recently that, uh, wonderful British man came in and gave me the stereotype of, well, I go to the pub every night.

Mm-hmm. , and as I have my pint, I wanna be there and go out with my friends who are smoking and I don’t want to have one too. And I wanna be out there and have it not even be an issue. So we had to get laser focused on that, but I don’t know about the, what was the example this woman had? I’m gonna be around my stepfather and he always irritated me.

Right? And, and so if you create a system in a situation where you have to know every trigger that could possibly be the problem and get in front of every single one of them, it becomes, Insane, uh, number where you get like this, it’s one of those things where, you know, like if you double a number enough times, it becomes huge really fast.

Which back to like that meta pattern approach, that’s a good way to mathematically check your work condition, the thing in the future. But it’s how we’re stringing all this stuff together to get to that desired result. And, and doing it the way you were talking about, like, you know, looking at, looking at it thematically instead, instead of just getting, you know, super techniquey on, okay, these, this is like eight techniques, nine techniques to get to age regression.

Okay, this is a lot of stuff. Um, instead just to be able to say, Look, there were things that you, uh, have learned since you started smoking and now you’re not gonna do that anymore. Obviously for the, you know, you can do it so much. Uh, with so much less work. It goes back to that other thing, right? It goes back to kung fu Panda where.

he realizes that it’s not about any of the techniques, it’s about him. Mm-hmm. and being able to say, I am the dragon warrior, is part of being able to be the dragon Warrior Warrior. You just spoiled that movie without saying spoiler alert. Oh my gosh, I really did Kevin Spacey the whole time. It was, it was Kevin Spacey by the, I’m not even gonna do that.

Um, that was so tempting to go off on this huge tangent, but no, the idea of everyone, By the way, every hypnotist needs to watch Kung Fu Panda. Seriously. Yes. It’s, it really, it is, it is really a story of finding your way and, and, uh, identity statements, um, which I think is, is wonderful. Um, and, and, and technique and flow and, and confidence in yourself and, and all these things.

And. That is, is so much more elegant than, here are the eight techniques that I’m going to do. And, and going back to the, uh, internship class that we have with the case studies in the beginning, uh, the, uh, the students when they’re doing, they’re doing their presentations, they really get into, well, first I did a 10 to one per relaxation.

I used a staircase deepener, I had them go into a meadow. In the meadow there was a tree, It was . And they really did, but you didn’t take them to safe place, so it’s not gonna work. Of course, yeah. This is te So, and that’s what the feedback is, right? So the feedback is things like that, and they’re really stuck in there.

And the more experienced they get and the more open to ideas they’ve become, and the more conversations they’ve had about this kind of stuff, the, the more they’re. Their presentation turns into, you know, I’m talking to this client, it was very apparent that something that was important to them was forgiveness of self and others.

So I knew I was going to need to do something about forgiveness. Mm-hmm. . And the difference between those two ideas, uh, is a huge shift in how someone is able to approach the work and do, instead of thinking of it as, uh, you know, distinct processes to break the processes up into a whole bunch of Lego pieces mm-hmm.

and then they can build whatever they want. Which again is like that theme versus process. Yeah, exactly. That this is a flavor that I’ve gotta bring into this. This is an ingredient that I’ve gotta fold in at some point. I don’t know what I’m gonna put this in there and how there’s certain spices as we cook that if we put it in too early, it burns and it’s not a match.

But this is a finisher and, and this, I think cooking, I, I talk about the difference between being a chef and a cook a lot, um, because. There are a lot of hypnotists who say, How dare you criticize another hypnotist work? Or how, How can you even. Judge, other hypnotist work. This is an art. There are a ton of cooking shows where all they do is judge each other’s food.

Right. And, and there’s a, of course you can judge art. That’s, there’s an entire career choice about judging art and art critics. And I read movie reviews before I go see a movie. Mm-hmm. , how dare you review a movie and tell me if it’s good or not. No, this is, it’s allowed. And hypnosis is no different. You, there is a, a position of experience where you can.

Uh, you know, and I’m not saying best or worse or my way, that’s not what I’m saying because there’s people who do something I would never do incredibly well, and they’re great at it, you know, the way, you know, uh, uh, Bobby Flake can appreciate great sushi. Um, though at the same time, those types of shows, they’ll be the judging moment.

Well, I just don’t like shrimp. Well, sure. And they failed. Yeah, well, there’s that. But, but the good, you know, there’s, there’s something to be said for watching different approaches and the understanding of the ingredients, right? So they’ll, you know, they give ’em a basket of crazy ingredients, and that’s what a client does.

They give you this basket of crazy ingredients. They’re like, Make a happy person outta this. And, uh, and you’re like, Oh my God, I can’t believe you’re giving me these things. Um, and you have to think on your feet and you have to put these things together and understand how they’re gonna interact. And you’ve gotta do it.

And you put it together and you give it to the judge, and the judge says, You move on to the next round. And that’s called the second session. And, uh, A cook needs, uh, a recipe. You know, a line cook gets a recipe and they follow it every day. Mm-hmm. and they make decent food. Um, to be a chef, you have to be able to do the other thing.

And, uh, I encourage every hypnotist to, to do their best to become a chef. Not because all of them should be that, and not because of all of them can be excellent chefs, but they can in, in trying their best to understand more of the ingredients, even if they’re only ever going to be a line cook, uh, it means they’re going to be a better line cook and they’ll be able to defend why they’re doing the things they’re doing instead of, you know, I do, I do regression because Roy Hunter told me so, or I do, you know, parts because Roy told me to, or whoever their instructor was.

Um, it means that they can have better conversations. Uh, one of the things I say, and this is the thing, so this is the thing. So now, now it is, um, one of the things I say to, uh, a lot of the drug addicts I work with, uh, when I, when I run groups, uh, I say, Look, I’m going to explain to you a very simple reason why you should stop doing drugs.

And uh, and I said, Look, no one’s explained it to you this way. I’m gonna give it to you in one sentence. And they say, Okay. I said, You will get to have sex with a higher quality person, . And they, and, and they haven’t heard it presented that way. I go think about it. What have you, what have you? Were only having sex with people you respected while you were having sex with them.

And everyone was there like, Oh my God. And, uh, what if, uh, so this is, this is, uh, I’m gonna map that across . Um, so, uh, what if every client you saw, you were able to explain why you are doing what you are doing? What if, if me, I’ve been doing this for 19 years and I’m pretentious. Um, what if I came in and I have no idea who’s listening.

So you might have been doing this longer than me and be better than me at this, but whatever. I’m gonna be a judging jerk. If I come in and I chastise you and criticize you and break down all the video footage of every session you ever do, and you would be able to look me whatever, because I’m the bad guy in the story, uh, you’d be able to look me in the eye and say, I did that for a reason.

And I can tell you what it is, because I’ll tell you right now, I have absolutely succeeded with some clients and I’ve absolutely failed with some clients. And I can own the fact that there are clients that I did not do the best job that I could have done on. And I audit myself as much as I can, you know, within reason.

And, and I look at a couple principles and I look at a couple patterns, uh, in, in doing so. Uh, and you know, in, in the line of work that I have, you know, uh, people die, people kill others, you know, it, it’s, it’s dramatic and whatever. Uh, but that’s not all my clients. Some of my clients are, are rich people who wanna lose six pounds,

So I see all, all sides of the, uh, of this in both ends of the spectrum, but. To work with those people who, you know, who can die and, and do when a client dies and, and I get a phone call that a client, my client’s at and I have found a dead body, uh, you know, that’s super dramatic. Uh, you know, of my client who was late for a session cuz he was dead.

Um, to be able to look yourself in the mirror and say you did it right. That’s, that matters to keep going. And that’s the most dramatic, and most hypnotist will never deal with finding a dead body of their client. Um, but, and to clarify, you were inside of a treatment center. Yeah, I was. Yeah. So he was, he was in a treatment.

He wasn’t, I rented a space at this location. I was, No, yeah, I was actually a public storage. I just rolled up the big door. Um, no, it was in an inpatient facility. And the guy had, uh, had, had purchased drugs, uh, you know, at a Narcotics Anonymous meeting in the bathroom. Mm-hmm. , and had been doing drugs in his bedroom by himself at 3:00 AM and, uh, and overdosed.

Um, and, you know, I, I had met him a number of times. He was a good guy. He really was. He was. And, and it devastated everybody. No one the staff. The clients, no. Any inkling that, that this happened and, you know, I met his family. Right. You know, I was at the service. You know, there, it’s, it’s, it’s a very real thing and I, I’m able to, and, and that’s not by a long shot.

The only client I’ve, I’ve, uh, you know, unfortunately had died because of the, cuz of that work. Um, and, you know, the, the chronic pain and the cancer and the, and all those things when, when, when the worst happens or even just a bad outcome happens, you know, when they keep smoking, you know, like mm-hmm. when they don’t lose weight, um, when the bad outcome happens.

To be able to say, I’m actually going to audit what I’ve done. Not this false arrogance, but to really say, I really did everything I could. I would do it that way again. Well, it’s where I think it’s less of a virus now. I think when I, uh, first got into all this, I was hearing a lot of dialogue around secondary gain and the client is, is the one at fault because they wanna hold onto the problem and not necessarily, So it’s the inflexibility.

And this goes back to the stage hypnosis side. I’m trying to track who said this to me. Uh, it might have been Chris Frolick out of Canada, who’s no longer I think doing that many shows. But the simple statement was, and this stuck, was the worst thing you can do after your program is listen to the radio on your drive home.

And to hear that about that. And I, and that just stuck with me that, uh, I’m driving to the office in the morning and it’s Mark Marinn podcast. Right. I’m driving home. It’s quiet. Yes. And that’s that time where I’m just thinking through the day Yes. Clients that I’ve seen, the interactions that have been there, and just that, that simple statement of the worst thing you can do is to, to paraphrase it, is do something that distracts you out.

Right? Yes. There’s benefit of the break state. Yes. There’s the benefit of, as I say to my clients consistently, this is one of those things that maybe creeps its way in for my benefit as much as theirs to let home be home and let work be work. Right. To draw those barriers. Though again, that simple statement, don’t listen to the radio on the drive home.

I think that’s, that’s wonderful. And going back to your idea of secondary gain, I think there. I think second D gain is used as such a cop out by so many hypnotists who just wanna let themselves off the hook. Uh, in the same way they go, I’m doing the best I can. Don’t say that. You know, like you of course.

Well, it’s not my fault. They don’t want to get better. They showed up and paid you. Yes. Right. They, they wanted something to be different. This goes back to that theme around not agreeing with things that I’ve done before, which again, there’s an evolution to it. Sean, Michael Andrews. I wish I could call back the first client and say, I got better.

I had that experience. Uh, she, uh, came back and she goes, Wow, that was very different than last time. Well, you know, based on your scenario this time, I thought other techniques would be more appropriate. Right. Translation, I had no clue when you first came into my office. Mm-hmm. , uh, as you’re someone I actually just knew socially.

So it’s where I developed and I still have out there, and it’s good because it’s great for most people to get started with. Yes. The whole phone process that I do with my clients, which there is only one super sneaky linguistic strategy inside of it. Other than that, I am doing the first couple of minutes of my intake on the phone.

You know? Mm-hmm. , what would you like to change? What was that gonna be like? What’s been helpful so far? What hasn’t been helpful so far? Any experience with hypnosis, Here’s what I do. Come on in. And now my real position is, it is my ethical responsibility to use every tactic that I know is appropriate to help you to get that change.

Yeah, I agree. And so sometimes that is, in my opinion as I phrase it, breaking rapport to regain rapport with the way it should have been built in the first place. Breaking rapport with the problem state to then build rapport with the solution state instead. Yeah. So it, it, it goes away from the, they have to have that bond, they have to have that connection that is gonna be important in the process, yet similar to, Okay, at some point I’m gonna need to throw in some forgiveness to self.

At some point I’m gonna need to throw in some sort of parts work. At some point I’ve gotta bring in something spiritual, because that’s part of this client. Right. Right. Um, Yeah, it’s such an interesting thing. Um,

I’m sorry. I’m just thinking about the, the thing you said at the beginning of that where you’re, uh, going back to your first client and being able to do them over again. Yeah. God, it’s, But I would be so good at a y o soccer this year. Like I would crush , those nine year olds, Right? Like, I’d be so much, I wouldn’t, I would ruin those kids.

I can kick the ball so much harder than all of them. Um, but, and I’m saying that because it’s, it’s about stages, right? You can only be where you are parent as well, Louis cck. Yeah. We hang out with the kids and we go out, but we’re all dumb down to the little ones level, right? Yeah. Yeah. . But, but there’s these stages and I’m not the best hypnotist I’ll ever be, I hope.

Right. You know, I know I’m better than I used to be. Uh, I don’t want to be done learning. Uh, you know, it’s interesting and I’ll give you credit for this. Um, . I talk to a lot of hypnosis instructors who say, you know, one of the great things about coming to a conference is continuing your own education and making yourself better.

And then none of them go to a class and all of them say it to each other. All of them say it in their advertising. , all of ’em say, you know, just developing my own skills and becoming better. Never stop learning. You go, Oh, what classes did you go do? I didn’t go to any. Mm-hmm. . I thought you said you were, I, you know, Well, you, you learn a lot by talking to each other in the hall.

You’re No, stop it. Right. You went to a lot of classes. I, I mean, uh, there were a handful of, uh, times I, I watched you walking in and out of rooms. You went to, you know, whoevers, uh, different talks and you were talking about here this weekend. My, my family’s here and the vacation starts tomorrow. Right.

Group me with them, they started the vacation to, to figure out what’s fun about Daytona Beach, and then I’ll join them. Good. Uh, which is part of the timing of this trip. And, uh, I, my wife goes, You weren’t at your table anytime I walked by. It’s like, well, yeah, everyone else was in workshop, so I was too, Right?

Yeah. And, and that’s hit no salts. Last year I did pre-conference, I was teaching pre No, I attended both pre and post, I think. Yeah. And this year’s same thing. And there’s, there’s a sincerity to that. There’s an authenticity to that. Um, which means you are not the best hypnotist you are gonna be either, Right.

You know, like whatever classes you attended in the last three days mm-hmm. something or hopefully a couple of things from those classes, you are going to synthesize into whatever version of you that is and be that much better for it. Um, which means you are better equipped today than you were on Tuesday.

Yes. . And so you have to always be, uh, aware of that when you’re looking back on the work you were doing. Uh, and hopefully that goes back to, you know, the idea of evolution and adaptation to trying to get the result and, and, and maybe being more clear on what that result is. Um, but yeah, I, I look at hypnosis completely differently because I’m not trying to be the best tiger or the snake or the best whatever.

I really genuinely want to be, uh, much more of dragon warrior kung fu panda that makes it so effortless. Um, I’m almost always, uh, able to do five to seven clients a day and not be tired at the end of it. And there are a lot of people who don’t understand how that’s possible. Yeah. Especially with the, the types of clients I’m seeing.

Right. You. and, and I don’t wanna make it sound like I’m, you know, saving the world or anything like that. A lot of my clients, although I don’t think that’s a stamina thing, and so many people put that to be a stamina thing, it’s not, I say it’s a mindset issue. Right. I, I don’t think I’m, I, I don’t think I work hard with my clients.

Mm-hmm. , I, I think I do good work, working smart. We should turn them into something working smart. Yeah. In hypnosis though, Um, never take off. No. Yeah. That’s stupid. My strategy for that is my client comes in and no matter the backstory, no matter the problem, and today in the workshop that you did with Richard non guard, you dropped the same metaphor that I’ve dropped as well.

That, that’s probably my idea. My wife might have been, my wife was watching. Hunger games on tv, and it’s the moment where it’s a movie about teenagers killing each other. Mm-hmm. , this is a children’s book. They turn into a movie and she’s getting visibly tense in the moment where, uh, Cat is being chased.

And of course I have to go. She’s in the sequels. Right. They have killed off Superman so many times. So many times. Superman, Batman versus Superman was so bad. I don’t remember if they killed off Superman. Right? I think they did. They did. But he’s already in the new move. No, they killed him. Yeah. Yeah. He’s in a grave.

Yeah. But he’ll be back. Oh yeah. So, and again, every iteration of, uh, Spiderman and it’s only on May who seems to be getting better and better. Right. But as you watch this, again, we know the end of the story. So as the client walks in, associate with the result, bring ’em along for the ride. Yeah. And with that, it’s not this, they Yes.

They are coming in with real problems. Mm-hmm. , Yes. They’re coming in with things that you might be the first one that they’re hearing, your first one that they’re telling. Right. Yet again, it’s where we’re gonna bring them. . And with that, every session is good to great. So, uh, a philosophy that I have is everybody is screwed up.

Nobody’s broken. People don’t break, right? So it doesn’t matter what they’re saying to you. It doesn’t matter what their goal is. It doesn’t matter what their problem is. You know, I’m a compulsive gambler, I’m lying, whatever their thing is. Okay? People have solved that today, right? Mm-hmm. , someone got better at that already this morning, and they were just on a different time zone.

So they’re ahead of you. Yeah. Um, so of course you’re ma you are made out of people and people get better. So you’re a people that’s gonna be able to do this, um, and not getting stuck in their narrative. Exactly. Well, it’s how writers would. began with a premise of what if we remove something, what happens?

Mm-hmm. . And this is where I can get swept into a television program, which is rare for me. I don’t watch too much if I know the writer’s process, and I’m not a horror person in any way. But to hear Robert Kirkman talk about Walking Dead. Mm-hmm. that just began with, it was a comic book, first graphic novel, Sorry.

It was a comic book. Comic book. And then from there it became the TV show. Right. And the premise was, it’s a reality where zombie literature didn’t exist. Right. So here are these things that we don’t know what to call them, but humans are more terrifying. Right. And with that statement is like, so it’s that removal of something which.

We have this existence, you know, we as hypnotist, this profession exists because our society has handed us this role. Mm-hmm. , we’re still around because this stuff works and this change is possible because other people have done it. And what are the skills, what are the nuances? What are the resources? And let’s use the T word.

What are the techniques they’re gonna get us there? And, and techniques are, are absolutely part of this. And, uh, you know, I I, you, you and I have kind of talked about techniques or themes instead and, and all that, but you absolutely need to have the technique. I mean, the, the fundamentals are there. If we go back to the, the chef versus cook metaphor, knife skills are a thing, right?

Knowing flavors are a thing. Uh, but those are presumed at a higher level. Mm-hmm. . So you have to have those to get to the next stage. But we’re not talking about those yet because you have to have them. Um, but, but that goes back to, I, I think that’s part of why I’m not tired at the end of the day. Mm-hmm.

Um, I can see five to seven clients a day, you know, some days even more usually not. Um, and, and really, Go home and, and look my my wife and kid in the face and, and, and be active in play and, and, you know, do all the things that you do in a family. And I remember hearing, uh, Richard Clark doing this, and he was working in, in a county clinic in inner city LA Every one of his clients was either a violent offender or a victim of a violent crime.

That week he was working with the hardest people in inner city LA and he had a waiting room full of people every day when he got there. And he had a waiting room full of crying people every day. When he left, he was doing 20 minute sessions all day every day with the hardest cases any one has ever had.

He referred me a couple clients. They were always my hardest client of the month, and he would do it all day. And, you know, he, he would work with a dozen crack babies a. Right. And, and that was what his work was. And then he would go home and he would look his wife and his son in the face. And I would say, How the hell do you do that?

And he was able to explain it to me, and he was able to explain how he was able to be deeply in report and sincere with those clients, and then be able to turn that off and not be exhausted by it, and not have it burn him out. And I didn’t, I just thought he was magic. Um, but I understand it now. Mm-hmm.

because I’ve had to adapt to that, uh, to a degree. Uh, which goes back to the evolution thing. Um, but when you work smart, it really is so much more, uh, Energy efficient. So much more elegant. It’s like the old guy in a kung fu movie, right? It’s that old Mr. Miyagi beats the crap outta you in slow motion.

It’s by guy in the back you gotta watch. Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s cane and kung fu. Right? You know, he can beat you up in slow motion while everyone else is taking turns, jumping and kicking. He just very slowly moves around in his pajamas and beats you up. And, uh, and that is, uh, what I’m seeing from really great hypnotists and I’m, I’m really appreciating it.

Um, how, how well they do that. I was watching Sean, Michael Andrews do it, uh, a day or two ago and just how simply he did one little thing on just finger magnets. I mean, how dumb is that? Right? I mean, finger magnets, I watched him change the cadence, uh, of anyone else I’ve ever seen. He, he has a different cadence in his finger magnets.

Um, and just the way he presents it and I saw him do it, and I was. You tricky son of a bitch. That was so good. Um, and, and those little things absolutely add up in the same way that when you watch, uh, cooking show, uh, someone’s able to appreciate something that I, I can’t appreciate someone’s able to taste something or appreciate, uh, uh, an element of the, uh, the cooking that I would, even if I tasted the food right next to, they pointed out to me, I wouldn’t be able to dis discern.

So my dental story that you may be one of the few people who can appreciate is that it’s a couple of years ago and I had. Recessed gums. Mm-hmm. . So they go, My dentist says, I’m gonna make you a referral to get a gum graft. I’ve grafted. Yeah. And please understand, I’ve been in dentistry for about 15 years and from what I usually see, you are the second person.

I’ve made that referral follow up on this. Right. So I did my research, I found a peronist. Yep. And the story goes, At the time my office used to be in a building where to walk down the hallway, uh, psychologist, dentist, uh, accounted a whole bunch of different professionals in the ground floor. And you see the sign that says dental arts.

And I got it this day. It’s like three weeks after the surgery. And the doctor, not the one that I saw, but just the one who happened to be in my building. Hey, you got that gum graft. We had talked about it. Hey, you got that gum graft? Uh, hey, lift up your lip. Show me. Which is not weird to have a, If the accountant had said that, that would’ve been creepy.

That’s, but it was the dentist and I mean, dude was almost in tears. because he is going, Oh my God, that’s beautiful. Yeah, there is no seam and it’s been three weeks. Please introduce me. So it’s where. . I, I keep coming back to the phrase, there’s artistry and everything. Yeah. And to highlight that artistry, there’s, there’s, uh, a movie called, uh, The Comedians of Comedy.

Yep. Uh, Zach Galus Patinas. I’ve watched so many times. There’s a moment where there’s how much does your entire family weigh? ? Yeah. There’s, there’s a moment when they’re talking about how big, uh, of comic book nerds they all are. And, uh, you know, it’s like every Tuesday comic books come out. So they go to a, they’re on the road doing, you know, traveling, doing comedy shows, and they go to a comic book shop and one of ’em says, I just got the new Jo.

And they’re talking on the phone to each other, and one of ’em says, I just got the new Joss Whedon. I love his work. And they’re talking about the guy who ended up being the director of the Avengers. Mm-hmm. . Right. And they’re talking about him way before he’s, you know, making, I mean, he made like Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Um, but they’re talking about him doing comic books. You know, comedians are storytellers, comic book, uh, writers are storytellers. And this is, I mean, there’s, you know, it’s obviously not the exact same art, but it’s a very similar process. Um, and it’s. It’s artistry, appreciating artists, it’s skill, uh, appreciating skill and just saying, This guy, this guy takes me through a narrative process efficiently, uh, emotionally, whatever, uh, in a way that is different and importantly better.

Mm-hmm. than the other people who are doing the thing. I like. Get ready for the ultimate segue by the way, uh, which would be that, uh, one of my students had gone through a class about a year ago, was here at this event, first time ever attending a hypnosis convention, and her comment was, There are so many people that are here that I’ve heard about.

I either from your class, from listening to them on the podcast or going to hypno thoughts on the website mm-hmm. or looking at different forms and seeing all these people who very clearly have different styles. Yet she goes, My biggest takeaway is that. It’s the end of the night and you’re all hanging out together.

Yeah. You know, this whole group was going out to dinner and you know, it’s just this mesh of everyone who comes together and different styles yet. The theme of respect of just, we do it differently, yet we know why we do it, and we respect the other models as well, and we’re not trying to sell it, sell each other, right?

Mm-hmm. , like, it’s that, you know, a priest and a rabbi are sitting on a bench, right? They’re not trying to convert each other. They’re just appreciating that we’re both too holy men. Right? And we could have done a whole bunch of jokes from there that I’m not gonna do because I already said enough offensive things in this podcast,

Um, I’m not going to, I’m not gonna do religion also. Um, but we don’t, we don’t try to convert each other, right? I don’t try to make Roy Hunter do things the way I do, and he doesn’t try to make me do it, or, or, you know, whoever else, uh, the Carsons or, you know, uh, Jess Marion. Sean Michael Andrews is not trying to get me to change my cadence in my finger magnets.

Mm-hmm. . Um, although he, it might have happened. It’s good. It’s good. It’s better. It’s better than what other people are doing. I’ve looked at a lot of people doing finger magnets. I’ve never seen it done that well. Mm-hmm. . And that’s a weird thing because it’s such a throwaway, stupid thing. It’s the gum graft moment.

Wow. That is so beautiful. Yes. . Yeah. And, and, uh, he, he does that better than anyone I’ve ever seen. Uh, and that’s what we can do at these conferences and we can, we can appreciate that. And we can appreciate, I don’t wanna do Sean’s job, but I appreciate he does it the best and he does it his way. And, uh, and we get to just be friends and, and share that.

Because not a lot of people can appreciate what I do, and my clients don’t. They don’t under, like, when I do something really cool that I’m proud of, they don’t, they don’t. Wow. That segue. You just did that nested loop. Really great work on that. And they don’t do that. And they don’t do that for you either.

They, you know, they’re just, they’re happy. They lost 14 pounds and they go away. Mm-hmm. whatever. Um, But we get to have a deeper appreciation for each other, the same way those chefs and those cooking shows, the way Anthony Bourdain gets to sit down with these people and, and eat weird food in some obscure, you know, back road in Vietnam and eat some, dim some and is thrilled and tells everybody about it.

We get to do that and that’s why we go to these things. So, speaking of which, yes, let’s talk, uh, now that we’re an hour and 18 minutes into the 20 minute recording. Yes. Uh, hypno thoughts live 2017. Yes. Yes. It’s gonna be big. It’s gonna be exciting. Uh, 170 presenters. Uh, I can’t All at once. All at once. It’s just one talk.

We got 170 rooms and, uh, and you just run fast. Um, no, uh, no. It’s, it’s, I don’t even remember how many hours. I think it’s like, uh, I think it’s something like 300 hours, just of one hour talks. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s nuts. Um, and we’ve got, we’ve got some presenters that don’t present anywhere else. Uh, some of them, because they won’t go to the smaller conferences, some of ’em, because no one’s ever heard of them.

They’re just, you know, secret people that we’ve been able to find. And some of them are, are raw and are, are speaking for the first time. And, and they might suck. Uh, you know, it’ll be, it’ll be exciting. Uh, but some of our most popular presenters have never. Attempted to present anywhere else. Uh, so that exposure to new talent is, uh, is really exciting to me.

Um, we’re doing more to, um, generate social stuff. So we’re doing a bowling tournament, uh, which we are very excited about. Uh, because instead of just doing, you know, stage shows and comedians and music acts and all that stuff, we’re doing a, a bowling tournament because it’s so social and because no one cares if you win

Um, so it’s just, it’s everyone just kind of standing around in a group in a activity that has a lot of downtime, um, so that we can get to know each other better. And I’m actually intentionally not on team, uh, because there are a thousand people that go to this. and I don’t know a lot of them. And so this gives me an opportunity to just, you know, avoid you and Ken Guo and David Snyder and I don’t Yeah.

Whatever. Yeah. Um, had enough of me this week. Yeah. Yeah. Oh God, . Um, but, you know, to go over the, to, uh, Elaine that has, you know, five or 20 people over there that I, I only know one or two of ’em, or I’ve shaken hands with ’em before, but I don’t know ’em. And get to know these people and have them get to know each other and create a sense of welcome.

Uh, you know, the first hypnosis conferences I went to, I was underage. I was, I was 18 years old and, you know, the next, the next youngest person was 35, uh, or 40. And, and I was very lonely. Um, and I, I cared a lot about hypnosis, but there was, there was no camaraderie for me. And so a, a very important thing for me in creating Hypno thoughts live is to create a place where there is fun and community, because I think that’s an important part of learning.

Um, so that’s, that’s what we’re doing this year. As always, thank you so much for interacting with this program. Be sure to head over to work smart hypnosis.com/itunes and leave your review for this program over there. Interact with it, of course on Facebook, over on the Work Smart Hypnosis website. And I’ll share the stage on this one because, uh, again, coming up in August, check out HT live.net.

It’s a great conference. The hypno thoughts live convention. Proud to share. I’ll be doing the keynote talk on Friday evening opening act for the Hypno Bowl 2017. First ever of its kind. Stick around afterwards too. For hypnotic products. That’s my two day post convention offering. All about creating a profitable passive income machine.

Check all these events out [email protected] as well as hypnotic products.com C in Vegas. Thanks for listening to the Work Smart Hypnosis Podcast and work smart hypnosis.com.