Session #139: Anthony Jacquin on Hypnotic Leverage

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This is the Work Smart Hypnosis Podcast, session number 139, Anthony Jack on Hypnotic leverage. Welcome to the Work Smart Hypnosis Podcast with Jason Lynette, your professional resource for hypnosis training and outstanding business success. Here’s your host, Jason Lynette. You are in for an incredible experience.

Hey there, it’s Jason Lynette, and this week on the Work Smart Hypnosis Podcast we’ve got Anthony, Jacqueline and I first became aware of Anthony’s work several years ago. First picking up reality is Plastic, which is a book that if you have not read it, absolutely go off and pick that up right away.

Whether it’s the ebook of it, whether it’s the book on tape of it available [email protected]. Uh, it’s an incredible read that whether you’re brand new to hypnosis or whether you already consider yourself a seasoned pro. There’s an incredible sanding down of the essential elements that absolutely comes from that book.

In this conversation, we hit on themes such as confidence for the hypnotist, redefining hypnotic depth, uh, what is the actual user experience, uh, when someone goes through a session with Anthony and his style of work. And then we also spend a little bit of time talking about the arrow technique, which if you have not encountered this yet, absolutely head over to the show notes.

As we link to that there, and you’re gonna learn all about this incredible technique originally pioneered by Anthony’s father, Freddy, uh, which is this outstanding process in terms of really dissolving away pain and a rapid NLP hypnotic style. So there’s a lot of great information here. We go deep into some of his inspirations in terms of recommended reading, and even so, uh, satisfying one of my, uh, nerdy questions of what’s a book from the magic community that he would recommend to the hypnotic community.

If I may be so bold to suggest, one of the biggest takeaways to take away from this conversation. Look at that language. A takeaway from a takeaway. The takeaway would be that as we begin our education, as the hypnotist, we’re often to use that, a little bit of a metaphor we’re gonna hit upon here, buying into the gospel of the process.

That this technique has to follow, that technique, that this method has to be used. And it’s great to hear from someone whose work I’ve truly respected in this profession. Um, sort of that, uh, changing of faith, this questioning of the process. Which doesn’t pull away from the power of it. Instead, my real honest opinion heightens it.

You know, it’s one of those aspects inside of my own program, hypnotic workers, where at times we’re taking some of these classic strategies that many people would know of in hypnosis, yet twisting it in such a way that now it takes on an entirely different application. So suddenly this pain relief technique is being used for resolving a fear.

Suddenly this aversion strategy is being twisted in such a way that now it’s building positive behaviors. Rather than kicking the old behavior when it’s down. Uh, learn all the details of these things [email protected] and of course, also [email protected]. In the show notes for this session, you’re gonna see all the references to the books that we mention, including the one very special book that, uh, Anthony referenced there, that, uh, quite honestly, I’ve already purchased myself, uh, before you ever heard this conversation.

It’s a real, real amazing opportunity and a great chance to help someone who can truly benefit, uh, from the help as well. So, buckle up. This one is incredible. Here we go. This is session number 139 Anthony Jack on hypnotic leverage.

What was it about hypnosis that you grew up with, the awareness of it, Uh, what was it about it that peaked your curiosity in the early days? It was very simple. My dad, um, he’s always, you know, been a sales guy and had his own business and took a year off and decided to learn hypnosis. He was interpersonal development and, you know, peak performance and that kind of stuff.

And, uh, as soon as he started using it, I, I just moved to Paris and he wrote me a letter telling me about some of the results he’d had. This was all therapeutic stuff, and he said, I feel like I’m wearing an invisible cloak. Meaning he felt like he was kind of vested with this new power, and, um, no one knew it.

It was just words, it’s just imagination as he’s still prone to saying. So my curiosity was immediately peaked. He suggested I too, get an invisible cloak, and he shared the materials he had, and I was one of the lucky ones my first three sessions, you know, with a few sheets of paper and. Someone laying prone on a sofa was successful and that was it.

I’ve just never, ever looked back. The first two were quit smoking sessions, and the third one was someone I’d just met in college. He was a, a vocalist and had some rare time in a studio. He couldn’t really afford it, so he really wanted to kind of unleash and, and get something down for his demo reel. And believe it or not, he got signed by someone walking past and saying that guy.

So that was it. It was kind of, I was, I was all in right from the start. Right. I love that there’s the aspect of, as we’re brand new at this, we often don’t know enough yet to be afraid of it. We don’t yet know enough to be cautious around it. Uh, and there’s the phrase that’s popped up here several times, which originates, I think back to Sean, Michael Andrews of, uh, I wish I could call back my first clients to say, No, really come back.

I got better, uh, . But let me ask you this. In terms of those initial sessions, I mean, it’s been some time of course, since that, what would you say it was that you did right in those sessions, aside from of course, getting the change? What was it that you went into that with the mindset or strategy? What was it that you say that from those early days went so well?

Well, I certainly went in with a complete plan, so a kind of beginning to end plan rather than just going in with sort of one technique. Um, I was aware from the bit of training that my dad had had that, you know, sitting down and doing a little bit of myth busting and positioning and stuff like that with regard to the smoking habit at least was worthwhile.

And I’m still very much a believer that I’m at work from the moment my client comes through the door. And certainly through the questions and discussion that seemed to proceed the more formal hypnotic part of the session. For me, it’s just one continuous. Process of, of suggestions. So that, that was good.

Um, the people I did it too, took it seriously enough. I think that was quite helpful. Looking back in the, they genuinely wanted to kind of experience it and I’d managed to keep them intrigued, by, by, um, you know, not, not coming at it in a completely amateur way. So at least kind of suggesting that I was, I was able to do this and I, you know, and I thought that I could help them.

So, um, that, that, that helped. Looking back on the session itself, I mean, it’s barely recognizable from what I do now, but I used, actually in the smoking session, I guessed it was a very lengthy process to eventually do some a. Thinking about it, which I barely touch. Now I see a version as a very blunt instrument, , and this was kind of a, you know, a long induction and then a sort of, you know, rambling, walking down a path kind of deepener that eventually led to a kind of a aver.

So for me, now that, you know, just doing a version is not really being thorough and, um, it doesn’t necessarily. Longevity and stand up. Too much pressure testing. What I love there is the description of, it’s a bit of a blunt weapon. It’s a bit of a blunt tool that you’re right, that, you know, it may not have that lasting value though.

I’m just curious to ask, are there specific moments where you will pull that out? As a strategy? Yeah, there’s a couple. I mean, I, I, I actually think the person needs to be reasonably skilled as a subject to, um, to really benefit from a version. Otherwise, it just makes them curious to go and test it and, and, you know, and if they’re reasonably skilled, then that test will stand up.

I mean, there’s, it’s just like a post hypnotic suggestion, so it will stand up. Um, it doesn’t feel like I’m giving someone choice. Mm-hmm. , if another time I may use it is if there’s kind of a single issue, Let’s say it’s, it’s someone wants to lose weight and stuff like that. and if, you know they have a grapefru for breakfast and chicken breast for lunch and a, a, uh, potato in the evening, but they drink 22 liters of Diet Coke a week, then, then maybe

I will, I will, I will knock that out of the way, but I, I would still prefer to do that in, um, in a more considered way that that leaves them with choice rather than just putting a block on something. To me, an aversion, I sometimes say it’s like a psychological equivalent of painting someone. Fingers with, I think it’s called Apple Bitters over here to stop biting their nails.

It does make it difficult. And if during that period of it being difficult, you experience some kind of change with regard to that, and you think I’ve done it, and you start to think about it differently, then it can work. But how many people do you know who stopped biting their nails because someone painted them with something that tasted disgusting?
You only have to get through that stuff once. Mm-hmm. And it’s, and, and the automatic habit is still there. So very rarely do I use a version, um, sometimes. If there’s a single thing that would make our, get us closer to that goal much quicker than I may kind of add some aversion, but they really would need to be showing some ability as a subject.

Otherwise, it’s just, it’s just not worth it, in my opinion. Yeah. I love that qualification of looking at it Also in terms of their skills as the subject that I’ve got. I give an example of someone just this past week that I decided to, to pull that out as a strategy. When everything you’ve just said is typically my same opinion as well, that it, it’s coming down to, there’s some dietary concerns, there’s some actual health things that are going on, being diabetic and just a certain category of food that the less of that is the better.

And she gave the hypnotic contract. Well, if I could just really see that food for the process junk that it is, then yeah, I’d be fine. And all of a sudden, bam, we’ve got a hypnotic contract in place, which is at least gonna be a stepping stone, and now drawing out, eating more of this other food, eating more of these good, healthy, beneficial things.

Yes. Yeah. Well, there you go. Yeah, there’s, there’s decent enough example. Yeah. Perfect. So moving forward then, there was that initial introduction. Uh, what would you say was your next step in terms of you had that success with those initial clients, then what came next for you? Um, well, my dad continued to get into it, and it eventually became his business.

You know, that, that took a few years, but we both studied it as, as, as much as we could and the books we had available to us at that point. And we, we, we chanced upon some, some good ones. And they’re, they’re still real valuable books and I think they’re real valuable books for. Beginners, um, they were training chances by John Odor.

Yes. It’s, it’s still a standout book. It kind of was, and still remains the bridge between NLP and hypnosis. And, and one of my main issues with, with NLP is that so much of the hypnosis seems to have been squeezed out along the way. Um, it just doesn’t seem to feature that much in, in many trainings. And I kind of think, I, I think that’s a shame.

I think it would, it, it it brings especially some of the earlier techniques to life and it gives them a kind of beating heart. Yeah. I wanna, I wanna expand upon that for a second there. So, uh, elaborate on that, that it’s been squeezed out. What do you mean? Well, I meet a lot of people who, who teach nlp and a lot of people who have done vast amounts of study of it and, and, and on some even the real lengthy courses and respected courses, um, it barely features.

And that may be because they are putting an emphasis on modeling and that kind of, you know, that, that, that being the, the important part, if you wanna model a hypnotist, then go and model a hypnotist. Um, . But things I, I, I try to put it in context for me. So I, I use a lot of parts work, um, very simple single part stuff akin to, you know, what NLPs would call a, a six step reframe.

And it doesn’t, I think they call it an end step. It doesn’t always have six steps, but simple negotiations with a part that it apparently does, runs a behavior for a purpose. It’s kind of, you know, think go back 20 years in u NLP literature and you’ll find this kind of stuff now that that technique is laid out in frogs, into princes.

And it’s also laid out in the original version of transformations. And it’s exactly the same technique, that six step. But in transformations, it’s very much. About non-conscious signals keeping the person, the person the person is kind of just can just watch and observe. Yeah. They’re just kind of hanging out and the unconscious is doing the effort.

So, to be honest, that is how I operate in, in most of the time when I’m doing hypnosis, is, um, the person can just watch, you know, with no, with no disrespect to them, they’re, they’re almost like a kind of shell as I go ahead and, and, and, and do work. So, um, again, that, that’s really why that, that would typify the difference that I’m talking about in the, for me, the original transformations book and training chances were books about hypnosis as opposed to just being about an lp.

And, um, so even though many of the things that I use are certainly recognizable from some of that, that, that, that, that early stuff, um, I tend to hypnotize people and create signals and hook that stuff into my. Process. Well, it’s that benefit of bringing in, I mean, just simply the hypnotic phenomenon into the process that it’s that age old scenario of, well, I felt relaxed, I guess something happened as opposed to, No, I saw my arm moving up.

No, I felt this burst of that old feeling that I was here to release, uh, my finger was moving on its own accord of bringing in that hypnotic element of it, which in my opinion, drives the change process even deeper. But it’s also really satisfying the conscious mind that yes, something actually is going on rather than just appealing to logic, rather than just appealing to the, the language patterns in the thinking.

Giving that actual kinesthetic experience that something is going on here. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, there’s many good reasons for including it and, and one of those reasons as well is that unless you, um, give some suggestions that would actually provide you with some feedback, uh, you never quite know how capable this person is.

And it may be that you can just, the techniques can almost become simpler and more direct. Um, the more skilled they are, if you only relax them and you try and kind of infer from that, you know, what capabilities they have. And, you know, we’ve gotta understand some, We vary , we do vary as subjects, and some people are real virtuosos in this regard.

Um, you’ll never know unless you test. So I, I’m, I, I’m also slightly cautious to, to, to say that an idiomotor signal absolutely means yes, from an honest unconscious or knowing, uh, or wise, you know, um, aspect of, of the person. It looks like that it behaves like that. It gives lots of useful bits of feedback.
But, um, you know, I’m, I’m in, in recent years, I’ve kind of become more cautious to hang too much on that. Ultimately, it is a suggested effect and as a suggested effect, it provides me with feedback. It lets me and my client kind of know where we are in the process and how things proceeding. And, um, most of the time it appears to be kind of useful, relevant information, even if that information is just a yes.

But again, I’m still, I’d still stop slightly shy of saying it absolutely is, you know, um, some pure line of communication. Well, there’s two sides to that cuz let’s, let’s use an example inside of stage hypnosis that, um, you know, very often there’s a dialogue of no dismiss the people who are faking it. Now, if there’s the person who very clearly is.

You know, peeking outta the corner of their eyes, squinting and just pretending and playing along. And you’re picking up on that. Yes. Uh, you know, not necessarily the best demonstration yet. If there’s a person who is, let’s say, self suggesting that they think they ought to be doing these certain things, they ought to be feeling certain things based on their own, I don’t wanna use the word misconceptions here, but their own preconceived notions as to what the hypnotic experience ought to be.

Simply by going through those motion motions, sometimes they’re actually suggesting themselves back deeper into that state. So I, I may be on the same page with you that, you know, in early years it’s like, no, once they’ve lost the numbers, that’s absolutely some nab Bism based on the Dave Velman induction.

Once the fingers are moving, that’s purely an unconscious thing at which this point, the best I can say is, Yeah, chances are pretty good as opposed to complete absolute fact on that. But again, it may be guiding them in deeper out of the perception of it though. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the , you mentioned the alman induction there, which is, is a wonderful thing.

And I think the reason it’s a wonderful thing is that en it encourages testing, whereas most other, um, or some kind of testing, whereas, you know, most inductions kind of lack that. Um, but the way I read it, you read, you read the original Elman suggestion. It doesn’t really suggest amnesia as far as I’m concerned.

Mm-hmm. , it, it, it kind of, it’s, it, it’s vague. It, it suggests almost, you know, you’re so relaxed, it’s almost too much effort to bother making. It can be interpreted that way and I find the way people sort of fade out with it sometimes, um, it’s more likely to be that than it is to be amnesia. And again, I’ve ki I’ve really kind of moved away from, um, you know, I know what you mean when you refer to some aism, but I’ve kind of moved away from any use of a state explanation or a depth explanation.

Um, as you know, as, as, as lovely as those ideas are, I don’t think they’re necessary. So I don’t, I, if someone can do amnesia, um, they can do amnesia. They have that skill and they may need to work a little bit to learn some others. It’s no guarantee that they’ll be able to hallucinate. It’s no guarantee that they’ll be able to do post-it mic suggestions.

Um, it’s a reasonably, you know, fair bet, but it’s certainly no guarantee. And I really see, you know, suggestions of state just as that, um, sleep trance deeper are no different from magnets. Lighter and stuck as far as I’m concerned. They’re just suggestions. They’re not a prerequisite for. Accepting any other suggestions?

They are just the result of those suggestions and yes, culture brings them into the office sometimes and the stage, um, serves some of them up as well. People kind of bring a lot of expectation along with them, and that’s a useful thing. It’s a brilliant thing, but for me, they are a product as opposed to a necessary process.

They are. So then from your, from your filters, when someone is going deeper into hypnosis, what’s your definition of that? What’s your description of that? When someone’s going deeper into hypnosis, they’re responding Yeah. To. Suggestion to go deeper. It’s that simple. We’re testing that suggestion. So there, the way I, the way I’d look at it is that some responses are common, and by that I mean most people respond to physical suggestions.

Yeah. Most people respond to pain suggestions, rather interest, and perhaps more interestingly, but most people seem to be able to respond to what we call, you know, basic routines or waking, hypnosis or suggestibility tests. To me, there’s no line, There’s certainly no clear line between what you’re doing there and what you’re doing when you give someone amnesia.

The point is that most people can respond to those. They have the ability, the the skill on board to. Around 23% of people seem to, without any training at all to have the skill to do amnesia. But it’s not, there’s no need to put them in any state. There’s no need to deepen their state. If you do put them in some kind of state, there’s, um, you just need to give them that suggestion.

You know, my frequent, my, my, my usual opener when I’m kind of doing strolling close up hypnosis is to essentially do a finger lock. So this is like my father’s simple extension of magnetic fingers, but it turns it into a challenge type suggestion. They become locked rather than just moving together. And then I, and then I just say, Now fill that same stuck feeling, moving up your arms into the mouth to the point, you cannot say your name and they can’t say it.

And then I say, And now it’s just completely gone. You can forget your name. So there’s no mention of hypnosis, there’s no mention of state, there’s no encouragement to relax or go deeper. But there is. Seemingly amnesia for a name. So for me, the notion of going deeper really means that we are working from, um, suggestions that are, or, or responses to suggestion that are common to responses to suggestion that are less common or even rare.

You know? So again, the, the, the numbers are consistent and just over 20% of people seem to, without any training or knowledge of hypnosis or anything at all, seem to be able to do amnesia and, um, slightly less can do, you know, negative hallucinations and similar number can do post hypnic suggestions and obviously have amnesia for those.

So, deeper to me is just displaying more of the phenomena. There’s no depth, there’s no state, um, other than the one that we keep suggesting. Well, it’s the mindset that I’d often use that, you know, at times that may be valuable to learn some of these scales, to learn some of these models, but at the same time, Uh, develop a wonderful fascination for how quickly we can break those models and just go directly for the phenomenon.

Well, absolutely. I mean, the thing is the, the models are, they are of relevance to academics. There’s not enough communication between academics and hypnotherapist. There should be the literature’s there to be shared. You know, we can all kind of look at it, but, um, from my experience here and you know, my friend Adam, me is, is completing a PhD to do of self hypnosis.

At the moment, it’s actually very difficult to get these two camps. To communicate. Not enough. You know, most, most hyler therapists think sort of, you know, if they’re reading deeply into this, that they’re studying Elman, you know, , and it’s kind of like, well, great. It, it, it, it, it shifted everything. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a mind blowing book.

It was, you know, in its time, and it still is an incredible read, but there is a massive body of good peer reviewed scientific research where they are really testing and asking hard questions about the hidden observer, about state, about the longevity of amnesia. About task ambiguity and all, all manner of different things that actually, if we pay attention to it, and then we kind of look at our practice, we can improve our practice.

Sometimes it does mean, uh, not just questioning, but abandoning some of our most cherished ideas. And, and trust me, I’ve been through the full spectrum of theoretical positions in the last 20 odd years, and where, I guess where I’m at now would probably best be described as quite a hard. Cognitive behavioral view of things.

Um, but it, it, it, it creates a little, I, I find when I share it with people, even it creates a kind of little dip of, ah, you know, you, you, you are taking away all of our toys here, . And it’s kind of like, well, no, all of them, but one, and that one was there all along, you know, in plain. And it really comes down to why do we have this special word called suggestion?

Why do we use this word in a special way? What is it that hypnotists mean? What is their definition? And um, when we, you know, we have the variety of positions, but there’s one, and as far as I can tell, there’s only one single thing that all the different academics agree upon. And that is the nature of the classic suggestion effect.

The classic suggestion effect is the subjective experience of a happening rather than the feeling that you are doing and that you are involved, that imagine a spectrum of doing on one end and a happening on the other. And for me, the defining characteristic of hypnosis is where we manage to slide your subjective sense along that scale.

Um, it’s still the same muscles lifting that arm, the same person. It’s just now it feels like it’s lifting. So, you know, if we, if we, if we take that as our kind of guide and we come back to your question of, you know, what happens when we’re going deeper into hypnosis? What we’re doing is our subjective experience is, um, is that our, our actions, our output, our thoughts, feelings, everything in the end is just happening Now, if we look at it even, you know, from a, from a neuroscience perspective, , absolutely that’s what seems to be going on.

It is a happening, it’s just occasionally you have a sense of control. Um, so albeit that too is automatic. If I’m going, if I, if I’m, uh, going too deep. No, I love it. It’s, it’s getting into that. Oh, it’s where if we want, bring it back to some of the classic texts, Dave Elman would talk about, uh, bypassing of the critical factors, faculties of the mind.

But it’s coming down to automatic response that we’re not just, And I think this is a thing that many in our communities need to readdress that yes, there’s value in teaching our clients strategies. Yes, there’s value in teaching clients self hypnosis. Yet so often there’s this dialogue when, when you feel bad, do this.

When you get that negative thought, do that, and that can be extremely beneficial. Yet the goal is to create that new normal, that new automatic response where, That issue just isn’t there Exactly. That a, a new automatic, and that new automatic can have an accompanying sense of control, but it will be a new automatic.

That’s really what it’s about. The other thing you know about the, this kind of, these classic texts, which again, I, I absolutely encourage people to read. Um, is that there aren’t any academics as far as I can tell, talking about Erickson or Elman. And then there, there, there are very few who, who would ever talk about a conscious and an unconscious.

I can’t really find any who would talk about critical faculty. Mm-hmm. , you know, these are terms for hypnotherapist. They, they’re, they’re not of any great relevance to those that are actually trying to get to the bottom o of the nature of this thing. And they’re useful terms, don’t get me wrong. I’m, I’m quite happy to, um, talk about a conscious or an unconscious or a part of you, um, if, if, if you’re a therapy client of mine.

But it, it, it, it’s when that becomes, you know, a little edifice for us to knee in front of. Right. Yeah. , what’s the line from Princess Bride? You keep saying that. I don’t think you know what that means. It’s just, let’s just remind ourselves, you know, the, the, the best we can manage is metaphor. Yes. And, you know, just, just, just to be prepared to question some of those concepts, not as necessarily true or not true, because they can, they can still be useful.

Um, but equally not to hold him up too high and, and, and, and for too long when you’ve got all this other stuff that can provide us therapists and, and performers with new insights and things that can potentially, you know, really, really benefit our clients. And, and, you know, just one example of that, um, you know, is, is, is that we really should all engage with the debate about the value and the potential, um, problems with regression to cause mm-hmm.

you know, I, I know because I’ve wielded it many times myself that it, it can seem to provide. A very, um, sometimes an immediate change and sometimes a very poignant moment and certainly an emotional moment. And, and you can think, Well, yeah, that did it. This technique here is, is gold. But equally, um, when that becomes the backbone of someone’s system, I think it can be problematic.

I think it can encourage. Uh, kind of reliance on the therapist, and I think it can cause unnecessary pain and discomfort where other techniques would do the job just as well without having to revisit. And, you know, it, it, it’s impossible to keep your language clean. It’s actually impossible to, to actually think that that, that you can do, that Elizabeth lost us, has shown us, you know, with a single word, how, how, how, how our kind of thoughts about something can, can be changed.

So again, there’s that and there’s many other things that, you know, I, I’ve used myself that we should just be prepared to question every now and again. That nothing, I, I, I heard a read a wonderful quote the other day, um, and it apparently was a motto at the early days of sn, is that how you say it? The famous therapeutic spot on the West coast, Fritz Pearls and Oh.

Yeah, I think it’s Lan and that was that no one steals the flag, as in, you know, no idea Will, will is, is the one, is the idea. No one gets to keep the flag, you know, Let’s just kind of keep it in play and keep talking. You know, and again, I know these are, these are challenging ideas. I know how popular regression to cause is.

Um, not just in a US but everywhere around the world, but there’s enough information now for us to kind of question when we use that and how much we use that and, and kind of why we are using a technique like that. You have a much more inspirational way of, uh, referencing all those things as opposed to the way that I’d often talk about it, , which now means of course I have to share, um, that with any religion, there’s now the anecdote of the person being the, um, the cafeteria Catholic, the cafeteria Jewish, that, um, they’re really faithful with all these things.

Well, except for that one, I’ll have a little bit of this, I’ll have a little bit of that, uh, the mindset that, you know, I will argue with passion. These things I believe in though if you’re in my office and the moment I have you closing your eyes for some sort of suggestibility test. Fluttering like crazy and responding to every hypnotic suggestion.

I, I’m not going to bother with the formality that, you know, is often, you know, inside of the process. Mm-hmm. , if you’re demonstrating these profound phenomenon, if you’re demonstrating the emotional state, the moment you walk in the door with me, it’s kind of goes back to my description of a lot of stage hypnosis in terms of the flaw of the structure.

They excite them in the audience. They bore them on stage and then they spend the next 45 minutes trying to get them excited, animated again, as opposed to make the whole thing animated, make the whole thing. Um, it’s where I think your way of describing it from reality is plastic. The, the mindset of just leverages that if you pick up the hand, that means now you can do something with it.

Yeah. If you have them put the arm in that position, that means you can do something with it. Yeah. Yeah. There’s, there’s a vast amount of our work that I think is actually hidden with task ambiguity, . That, that, that, that the person in front of us doesn’t quite know how to proceed. Mm-hmm. , they’re looking to us constantly for, for an idea about how to proceed.

Again, it doesn’t mean that, that they have to do that much, but they’re in this kind of limbo, which to be fair in that moment, you don’t always know exactly how you’re going to proceed. Either. You’ve got, you’ve got a couple of ideas, but once that arm is up there, deal with what emerges. Yeah. That’s why I lift people’s arms up quite a lot.

It gives me. Gives me a, a lot of options that needs to be on a business card. So somebody comes into your space, somebody is now working with you. I’m always fascinated by the discussion of just what we can brand as the user experience. Uh, what is it that they’re about to go through as somebody is working with you in a, In a therapeutic session, you mean?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Um, well, my sessions are, uh, depends what I’m doing, but my sessions are normally between 60 to 90 minutes long. I tell them what’s gonna happen up front. I say, I’ll ask you a few questions. We’ll have a discussion. I’ll explain what hypnosis is and why you can make these changes. And then in the second part of the session, I’ll hypnotize you and we will apply those techniques.

So I set that out pretty early. I, I, I was lucky enough to get, when I went full time to get very busy very quickly and just consistently knock it out, nine to five every day, five days a week. So I, I blasted my way through quite a few thousand sessions in a row. And I discovered pretty early on that even though people have booked an appointment, some are kind of on the back foot about the hypnosis.

They’re just sitting there, wait. And wondering when, you know, is, is he gonna hypnotize me? And I find other people, if you start talking to them and having, you know, discussions can, can make the leap, Oh, this is hypnotherapy. It’s a bit like counseling. So I prefer to kind of sew a bit of expectation early on and say in the second part of the session, that’s when this will happen.

In my own mind, I’m completely at work suggestively throughout the entire thing. I believe people are always on, always receptive, always being, uh, always responding to, to, to, to suggestion. So the, the induction is not gonna increase that they’re, they’re just always receptive. I’m appealing to their inherent receptivity, if you like, if that’s a word.

If not, it should be a word it is now. And so, um, I don’t ask too many questions. It’s not like it’s a massive case history. My my, my questions are very much about kind of arming myself with, you used this word already leverage. Um, my dad refers to it as emotional leverage. Anything I can use in this session to create some emotional spikes, I, I will kind of gather.

That could be, you know, their fondest grandchild or it could be their, um, you know, their, their, their, their most lip smacking goal that they’d like to kind of achieve. I’m trying to get a hold of some of that information. What matters to them, the reasons. And at some point I’m probably gonna frame their problems if it’s a single issue type thing in our discussion as some automatic part of them that this is just something that they’ve learned.

So we don’t need to explore and go too deep. Um, there’s certainly no great effort to explore the past. We talk about their problem in terms like that get quite kind of functional, like a part of you that’s responsible for weight control, um, or that, that kind of stuff. And it’s very positive, outcome orientated, brief type stuff.

Uh, all of those things, uh, buzzwords. They’re also styles of therapy. I just mean buzzwords. It’s brief, it’s outcome orientated. And they’re generally quite, um, excited and, you know, feeling part of this collaborative act. But a time we get to the hypnosis itself. When we get to the hypnosis, I do a rapid induction.

It’s again, it’s, you know, my father’s my biggest influence here, so we both use what’s called the Jack Win power lift. He created it, it’s a sort of hybrid between a rehearsal and a handshake and just a sort of direct suggestion, but that leaves our client with their arm in the air and their eyes closed in the kind of swan position.

Looked at Bob Burns the swan, um, you’ll recognize the elbow on the chair, arm in the air. And we’ve been leaving our clients in that position for a long, long time. And the next thing I do is create idiomotor communication, and then I hook that into the, to, to, to the parts work. And then I, I do whatever else it is that I think I will see fit to do, why that part is searching.

And that really could be, you know, I, I say anything, um, let’s say I probably have seven or eight tools that I draw upon and use a combination of them, maybe three or four, five of those things in the middle of this, um, negotiation with this part. Throughout that process, I will push the phenomena that is an idiomotor movement as far as I can.

So, um, for some people it’ll. You know, a, a flicker of the eye. And for others it will end up being like, you know, some heavyweight voodoo in the chair, which they, uh, appear to be trying to float out of , , things like that. I will push the experience as kind of hard as I can. Um, I will do some of that with their eyes open so they get to see what’s going on.

It’s not just a kind of eyes closed experience. They get to, um, you know, a challenge type suggestion with regard to this movement and the progression of these movements and the communication, things like their hands coming together. Um, and I, I use metaphor quite liberally. Again, I don’t feel the need to reinvent that stuff every time.

I have a handful of metaphors that I have used. Hundreds, sometimes in some cases, thousands of times. And I mean, what I say when I’m, when I’m doing this stuff, it’s not like a spell to me. I look at the person and I mean exactly what I say. I try and, you know, be the storyteller and, um, Make it as emphatic and and meaningful as possible.

And then we bring it to an end and they open their eyes looking suitably, perplexed, , . And then, you know, depending on what it is, if it’s, if it’s some kind of pain or fear, um, that kind of stuff that I can immediately test, um, then I will, I will test. You know, with, with symptom scaling and making them think of stuff and challenging them to do that, I don’t really give my clients too much homework.

Um, I, you know, uh, I may give a few post notes, suggestions and, and casually test stuff like that, but, I don’t really give ’em homework. I just say, you know, get out there and see how you get on. And, you know, we, we, we may book a second session. It depends what it is they’re doing. They normally have a follow up session, so we kind of book that in and they come back next week and they tell me how they’ve been getting on.

It’s really quite straightforward. I, the, the other thing I normally do is teach kind of instant self hypnosis in that, um, first session as well. Whenever I get someone hypnotized, I’m likely to give them the key just in case they should ever decide to reach in their pocket and pull it out. I’m guessing, I’m guessing most don’t, but it just seems such an opportunity lost if, when someone is hypnotized and responding wonderfully that you don’t say to them from today, should you ever wish to use this ability, you will be able to do.

All you need do is hear these, this, this word in your mind, and you’ll immediately return to this state anytime it’s safe and appropriate to do so. In this state of mind, it’s deeply recuperative. You can spend a few minutes there and, uh, or more usefully, you can use your inner voice and tell your mind what you want and when, how you will feel, and when.

So at the end of the session, I will reprise that and they will take themselves back in, even though there’s no in, and they will, um, extract some basic phenomena, you know, that will tell their own hand to stick or their own hand to lift or then tell ’em to, you know, give it a more useful suggestion to themselves.

And then that’s, that’s the end of the first session. It just, it’s just like the ultimate free gift. Outstanding. What I love about that is the aspect of, again, bringing kind of like the, where we began this conversation, bringing the hypnosis into it, bringing the actual kinesthetics into it, that they can feel things are going on, that they’re interacting the whole way.

Yeah. Yeah. There’s nothing, there’s nothing to be afraid of there. You know, I, I, I spent a few years with people silent and, and not moving and afraid if someone knocked on the door and, um, terror, you know, just, just all this, you know, a chair squeaked, I think most, most of us do. Because, because, you know, relaxation is so central to most approaches, and it’s easy to find yourself in that mode.

And obviously relaxation is recuperative and beneficial. So most session. Kind of benefit from some of that anyway. They are gonna introspect and go inside and pay attention to things they wouldn’t normally pay attention to. Um, but it’s not necessary. It’s not, it’s not a must have. It’s not, um, it gets in the way of, of, of some more active, you know, hypnotic pursuits.

So, and it may even be suggesting them into a state that is not the desired outcome. That if they’re going for peak performance, if they’re going for excitement, if they’re looking to improve upon something, um, that relaxation may not be the desired outcome at which point. It, in my opinion, serves as a distraction.

Yep, absolutely. I mean, Michael Perez has got some great work, um, with regard to that and, you know, kind of how we, how we suggest hypnosis in relation to the problem that they have. He lectured on this at a conference I ran in London a few years ago. One of the most popular lectures at the UK Hypnosis Convention, uh, just, just a week back was about, you know, active inductions or active, you know, and active techniques as you walk down that corridor.

It’s a bit like kind of anchoring, but it. It’s used the activity as your process and uh, you know, there’s a lot once you get your head around that it, you relax bizarrely and you realize that, you know, you can, you can do this in any circumstance and you are, you are allowed to be a bit more creative with it.

It’s really about the suggestions that you are giving outside of that, um, particular process that, that are gonna make the real difference. So, yeah, you know, I, most of my sessions have that kind of shape that I just described, but I do more and more, you know, not looking for it, but just kind of, there are so many impromptu opportunities to run some of these STA techniques that can stand alone.

And most of the things I use in my session actually can stand alone. You know, there’s, there’s no reason why you can’t have a go at a phobia with a rewind technique. There’s no reason why you can’t use the swan in isolation or the arrow my dad’s creation in isolation. All of these things I know can be effective.

And to be honest, some of that stuff is really making me question my approach overall. Um, a friend of mine in Belgium runs a very successful hypnosis center. They have four hypnotherapist working out of there. They are very busy. They have lots of referrals. Their average session length. Wait for it. 12 minutes.

Nice. , . And people love it. You know, they, they’re absolutely loving it. They’re just having a go with the, with the kind of tools that I’ve just described. Let’s just see if we can just suggest change here right off the bat. Go out, come back next week. Let me know how you get on. Um, well there’s a list of, couple of things I’d share briefly here that, uh, things that I used to believe that now I don’t.

And I think the first one was that, kind of like what you mentioned there of, you know, the person lying in the chair, relaxed and quiet. Um, that as soon as I got over it rather quickly that the process was delicate, that the process wasn instead. Extremely flexible, extremely malleable that, um, and it came from me doing a demo one time and someone where I’m getting into this excited tone, bringing up that state within the client, uh, of confidence.

And, uh, it’s a hypnotist in the group going, Yeah, but if you talk that loud, you’re gonna wake them up. And realizing, Oh dear . Um, so getting over that mindset that the process was that delicate, uh, was a big thing. The other one, uh, was just simply being in the moment with the client, being in the experience, um, and recognizing that the length of the session does not necessarily correlate to the quality of the results.

And no, making it so clear that in my paperwork, in my conversations, that, you know, I schedule everything as this 90 minute block. If we need the time, we’ve got it. Uh, though, if we got the change in 35 minutes high five, enjoy the rest of your day. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I. You know, I, I lurch between these kind of five minute interventions and then more sober reading where it’s kind of well, repetition helps.

Mm-hmm. , you know, the, the apparently results are better for smoking if you do three sessions rather than one and, and this kind of stuff, it’s just. You know, the way I got into it, it wasn’t to race, it wasn’t an obsession with rapidness, It was just that from, from very, very early on, uh, you know, I’ve, I’ve seen that the vast majority of things people approach me for can, the potential is there for them to, to, to, to change in one session.

It’s just sometimes there’s more work. In fact, another line for Michael Perez that I, I use a lot in this regard now, um, because I do wanna encourage my clients to, to stay with me if we need to do more work. I want to, I want them to understand, I’m with you on this and I’m up, you know, for, for, for doing several sessions or giving them support through Skype or whatever’s needed to kind of make that happen.

And in some cases it is. But at the conference I used to run, uh, called Change Phenomena. We have a panel session at the end and all of the speakers are obviously on that panel. And, and someone asked. You know, what do you say when a client says, Will it work? It’s a very innocent question. And, and Michael Perez pointed out that, you know, most of us, because we understand something about suggestion, have a complete aversion to even the nearest hint of honesty in this regard, that it might not work.

Yeah. Which is the reality. You know, we, we, we don’t all get 100% results even if we do three sessions or 10 sessions or, or whatever else. That’s just the way it is. So his answer, he said, Look, and I’m hope I’m not misquoting him, but this is how I say it. Um, he said, Look, doing what I do sometimes I seem to be able to help people when nothing else is helping.

And sometimes when I help them, it just happens like that. It’s literally one session and, and that’s all we need. On other occasions, there’s more work for both of us to do. And every now and again, hands up, I just can’t help you. But we know that pretty quick and that has kind of become my answer because it leaves the miracle option on the table.

It leaves the 35 minute option on the table. But it also has, you know, some realism. If you’re doing this day in, day out, it’s obvious that that, you know, our work is varied and sometimes, um, you know, there’s a little bit of settling down to do and sometimes there’s a bit more explaining to do and sometimes there’s.

We have to be a bit creative and, and find other, other ways around, you know, blocks and problems. And sometimes there’s a shopping list of stuff to deal with. So that’s kind of become my, my answer. Um, I wanna encourage my clients to be committed to whatever’s needed, but I also want to have the opportunity of just firing a swan or an arrow at seeing what happens.

Because again, the, the, you know, those, the swan especially, I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s, it just has come out of nowhere. It’s, I don’t know if you’ve had Bob on your show yet? I have, yes. You know, it’s the first step, the, the, the innocence of that first question where you kind of just look past a person and say, If your mind is willing to look at this, that hand will move.

And it generally does. It is kind of like the problem is just stepped into the fly trap. It doesn’t know it yet. It, it hasn’t tried to escape yet, , but it’s, it’s already game on, even if it’s not quite game over and. The client themselves. It, it wouldn’t really occur to them that what you are actually trying to deal with my, my 20 year problem , you know, in three simple steps.

But I’ve seen it again and again. And, um, you know, I’m now, I think you said you’d seen the arrow, you know, my dad’s creation. And I confess on there that it took me quite a few years to really accept that as a technique, even though it was my dad that was doing it. It’s just, it’s just so simple and it’s so unassuming.

And yet I’ve seen people time and time again with chronic pain and they’re, you know, they’re reporting this as chronic 9, 10, 11, I’m seriously in pain. Um, and five minutes later they can’t feel it. And that as much as anything just makes me question our personal reality. , it’s, if you know that, that was like the last, the last holding out for, for any loyalty I had to.

State, I was kind of like struggling to explain that one away from a cognitive behavioral perspective. Now, in the, in the training of the arrow, I mean, even pointing out that this could be done with hypnosis, though it could be presented as its own standalone piece. And I, I can even see a greater strength, not even any dressing around it that’s coming down to, I mean, yes, there’s components of dissociation, there’s components of blowing out that state components of uh, just, you know, that full expectation of the process.

Um, yeah, Yeah, but I, I, I, I totally agree with that. It absolutely doesn’t need to be presented, um, within hypnosis, and you can still get, I, I’m guessing you can still get the same results. It’s just generally we present it in a context of hypnosis. But, you know, I’ve done this very, very casually. I, I’ve done this standing up next to someone in a, in a pub, and they’ve still got a pint in their hand, and I’ve just said, Just imagine this for me.

And some severe chronic pain due to nerve damage in a neck that they’ve had in their feet for eight years has vanished. Which this is a phenomenal process for those listening that, uh, haven’t encountered it yet, which I’ll link to it in the show notes over at, uh, Work Smart Hypnosis as well. , I’m not trying to do product placement here.

I’m just, I’m just saying I’ll push it for you. . But things, but things like that. And again, you know, I, it’s just because I’ve been lucky enough to a, my dad and I have been able to bounce ideas off. Experiences, you know, off of each other for the last 20 years, which was a real bonus. Now there is a, you know, a strong community and an abundance of resources.

Obviously, you know, you, you, you hear these kind of tales, um, from all over the place. And I’m still consistently astounded at, at, at what can be achieved. You know, it’s becoming commonplace now for people to be talking away allergies, you know, which for a long time were just, Well, no, you can’t really do that.

You know, people weren’t even really trying that hard. And, and it’s like, well, it is there in the literature and more and more people seem to be doing it and, um, doing it with the same similar approaches than they would, you know, any other kind of protective mechanism. So I, I’m, I’m, I never get tired of this.

I’m, I’m consistently amazed. Our capacity to change and to do that almost, you know, with, with playful imagination games, um, that aren’t that taxing, that we could probably automate , We could probably stick in some VR goggles. You know, I don’t wanna do myself out of a, out of a job, but much of what I do, I’m hap, I’m, I’m, I’m not ashamed to say is very kind of process driven.

You know, the, the words within that technique or a typical smoking session, they don’t vary that much. There’s some personalization of content and there’s some kind of emotional leverage and some particular kind of pointing, um, based on who I have in front of me. But that probably makes up about 15, 20% of the session.

The bulk of the session is very, Process driven. By that I mean, you know, the, the, the techniques carry it. And, um, I don’t think we need to, to, you know, have this infinite tapestry of new ideas and metaphors and connections and, and I, I just, I just don’t be believe we need to do that. I think it’s nice and it can feel good to operate in that fashion, but well, at the risk of using a hypnotic metaphor to describe hypnotic metaphors, the, uh, the handyman only has so many tools that they’ll often make use of.

Yeah, indeed. It’s, it’s, it’s indeed how they put them together that really creates the, Yeah, the process. Yeah. I sometimes say, you know, there aren’t any advanced punches in the boxing gym. You, you can throw them in every condition with different kinds of opponent, but ultimately, there’s only a handful of punches in there.

And again, I, I, I, there are common elements to so many of the things that I do, you know, this kind of imagined dissociation. There’s lots of ways of, of, of, of doing that, but that seems to be very common. Adopting this kind of observing self position seems to be common to many, many techniques. Um, being given permission to just do it differently and then, you know, for that differently to become your.

automatic response. Um, we can, we can easily overindulge sometimes in the elements that make up a process, but at the end of the day, it’s just a hammer. It’s just, this one’s a shiny one. This one’s got a rubber handle. , this one can pull out nails as well, you know? Um, but that’s just how I operate, you know?

I know, um, some very poetic hypnotists and they do great work. You know, I just, I just prefer to really, and, and this kind of applies, this often comes up with regard to how can people get better quicker. I, I’m very much of the mindset that you will master your craft by limiting yourself to a handful of tools at first, and.

Using them over and over and over. It’s the same. When you try to learn magic, the temptation is to gather, gather, gather, gather, fill, draws up with tricks, need to know every secret and learn nothing about performance. Whereas if you have six tricks as magicians saying you do ’em thousands of times, then you will learn everything you need to know about interaction and misdirection and what you can get away with.

And bits of good fortune and bits of bad luck and so on. So, you know, when I teach people hypnosis, um, yeah, I do give them a, a toolkit if you like, but I, I very much believe that they’re really gonna learn this once they start using this, these tools every. And they start, you know, filing stuff down every day and they start, um, you know, hammering away at things every day and realize what, what’s, what is gonna work on and, and, and when it doesn’t and that kind of thing.

Yeah. Which you may have seamlessly, uh, transitioned me into one of the questions I wanted to ask you, which, uh, is an interesting one for the audience listening to this. So I will give you the, uh, the, uh, head start on it by actually giving you my answer, uh, to this question first, that we share a background, we share an interest with magic that I know it’s correct me, it’s something that you’re still, uh, at times performing.

Yes, Yes. I, I, I get hired as a kind of close up. I’m always introduced as a hypnotist, but I mix up magic and mind games. So things that look like, not really like I’m reading your mind, but more like I’m putting thoughts into your mind and I’m, um, you know. Yeah, yeah. Occasionally guessing which kind of actions you’re gonna take and things like that.

It’s all magic. Right. So you’ve referenced some outstanding, uh, some outstanding books in terms of reference points of going back to transformations, going back to, uh, training, TRAs, uh, and I’ll give you my answer here first as a head start for your side of it. Uh, which would be that for most of this audience there, mostly of the hypnosis background though, if you could make one recommendation of a book that’s written for the magic community that you feel the hypnosis community ought to read, which briefly my answer is, uh, Dar Fitz’s Trick Brain.

That specifically the chapter around the 19 magical, uh, occurrence classifications. That for the magician to know the difference between a production and a trans, uh, transformation, a penetration, the difference between thought reading and thought transmission and prediction to take all these various effects and put them into the individual categories, which otherwise the turn of the century performer at times.

Uh, you know, deemed the box jumper was the girl jumping outta the box, the girl jumping outta the box, the girl jumping outta the box. Same trick over and over, which inside of hypnosis, this is kind of my hit list at times inside of a session around, Okay, I need to hit this directly. I’m gonna at times apply direct suggestion hypnosis.

I need to address this indirectly by way of metaphor and storytelling. I need to appeal to the emotional state, so maybe. If cathartic change is gonna be beneficial, if it’s practitioner driven nlp, client driven nlp, which is not necessarily the, Hey, here’s another routine for this table. Uh, but instead, how else can I further compound this work?

So that’s where I go back to that, uh, Fitz Ski book again called The Trick Brain out of the Classic Fitz Ski Trilogy. Um, so if, if you had to make a recommendation of a magic book for the hypnosis community, what would it be? Okay, Well, I’ll recommend one, and then I’d like to recommend another book as well.

Um, there’s a wonderful book that I put off reading for, for an I intentionally, I just didn’t get round to it, but many people recommended I read it called Maximum Entertainment. Yep. And I’m happy to recommend this to Non Magicians because the subtitle. Um, there are no tricks in this book, but there are many secrets and it is just brilliant, really.

I think it really informs anyone from any profession, um, in terms of how they might carry themselves and what kind of impression they will leave with others. And a distinction he makes early on in the book is a useful one. He says, you know, whatever it is you do as, and the guy, the guy wrote it is actually a Vegas magician and Iist.

So there are many points and we’ll link to all these books in the show notes, but that’s Maximum Entertainment by Ken Weber, w e b e r. Yeah, that’s the one. And, and he made early on, he makes a distinct, He just says, Look, you know, when, when we’re dealing with adults, the stuff that you do is gonna be received on one of three levels.

It will be received as a puzzle, which essentially means if I knew the secret, I would be able to do it. Or it may be received as some kind of trick, and that may be the card being put in the middle of the pack and arriving at the top of the pack. Or it may be vanishing a Statue of Liberty, but it suggests that there is some skill.

In other words, if I knew the trick, I probably still wouldn’t be able to do it. . And finally, and this is where we all wanna be, there is an extraordinary moment or extraordinary moment when for a moment you, you stop thinking, you squeal and you go, Oh my God, , you know, , um, I was holding it, it was just a thought in my mind and everything kind of stops.

It’s a timeless moment and that’s where we’re aiming. Well, I think that’s a useful reference. Rough as therapist. I do think, um, that giving people an experience that’s out of the ordinary can be of real benefit when we’re doing therapeutic work. And keeping the therapeutic alliance alive is partly reliant upon your, the way you show up and your presence, and obviously your relationship to the client and your ability to communicate.

Even when the person has been stuck with a problem and is at their wits end and you, you are their last resort, you know, if you can still manage to do that via your presence and manner and, um, clear knowledge and, and, and experience and speak from there, you know, really be heard from there, then I think it can make a big difference to the, to the therapeutic alliance and therefore, The outcomes that you get.

So that is, that is a very good book. Um, another one I’ll mention, so there’s a, a guy in the mentalism and hypnosis community, I guess not too many therapists will name him, but his name is Jerome Finley and he’s produced some quite remarkable. Material over the years and a couple of years ago, he was actually attacked.

He, he wrote a brilliant book on hypnosis. I referred to it as the, you know, the, the encyclopedia of hypnosis for the 21st century. It’s about, I think it’s about, it’s a massive, Yeah, it’s a massive book. Um, I paid $575 for a hard back version of that. Well, Jerome was attacked a couple of years ago, very viciously, um, get too graphic.

But his, his. Face was, was, was very, very badly damaged and his jaw was broken in many places. And, um, he’s now starting to recover from that. But he’s been suffering, you know, with medical bills and he’s also been suffering with anxiety and different things for some time. And, um, I’ve now kind of helping him make his book available for $50 and the money goes direct to Jerome.

I don’t benefit from it in any way, but if anyone is interested in that offer, then that wonderful book will be in a digital version, is now available for a limited period of time for $50. And what happens is I would send you the details of Jerome. PayPal account and then I would deal with the order rather than Jerome.

I will send you the files and the cover and, and all that kind of stuff. It’s a brilliant book. It’s encyclopedic in the sense that, um, it’s not just about performance hypnosis or therapeutic hypnosis. It straddles the two very well. It gives his unique take on pretty much all of the classic techniques that, that you may know already.

Um, and it also outlines. A lot of very interesting, I I performance is, yes, it has his stage hip, no routine, his 12 minute routine, his impromptu stuff, but it also kind of straddles this, um, this, you know, more shamanic space that only Jerome Finley can, can own. He’s completed two full shamanic systems and, um, is a genuine man of mystery.

It’s extremely good and it’s, it’s, you know, it’s, there’s a lifetime of of material in that. It’s extremely good and I’ve only held a physical copy, uh, once before and thumbed through it. So I’ll happily be the first one to take up, uh, that offer. So if you can please share any details on that, we’ll stick that in the show notes, uh, as well.

Uh, before we wrap up, um, two questions for you. Uh, one, uh, one will eventually become the standard. How can people find you? Uh, the first is, where is it that the new hypnotist can find confidence? In their process. What cultivates that? What, what generates that in your opinion? Right. Well, my, my mantra for these days is, is begin, and I mean that in two ways.

I, I first of all mean that the basics will take you far, The stuff you read in the first 20 minutes of reading that book will actually, um, provide you with a starting point and allow, or any book and allow you to kind of get started. And confidence is gonna come from continuously playing with what, what’s perceived as, as kind of the basic stuff.

Suggestibility test and exercises. Um, the response you’ll get to them even from, you know, intelligent adults is, is delightful because everyone continues to be fascinated with the sense of things being automatic and happening beyond their control. It allows ’em to kind of dance with, with this, uh, this, uh, you know, lack of control if you like, safely.

So that’s, that’s one thing. And the second is, I say begin in the sense of start anywhere, realize that you don’t need perfect conditions. There are no perfect conditions. You can create something novel and you can begin pointing suggestions at it straight away. And, and, and, and I’m mean particularly encouraging people to do that with things that will give them feedback, give the the subject feedback, give the hypnotist feedback in terms of whether this.

Happening or not until you do that. Even if you see a thousand people and you just relaxed and, and, and, you know, so they were really relaxed and they were quite relaxed and that person couldn’t relax. If you only do that, your, your confidence will only ever sort of grow in that realm. And confidence really comes from being able to, you know, it was really shown when you can.

And it’s, you know, it’s a professional call whether you do or not, but you can just get into this anytime and. Whether that is for, to therapeutic reasons, random acts of kindness is my dad likes to call it, or because you wanna have fun or because the person wants to learn something about themselves. And being able to do that, um, you know, even if you have five minutes or 15 minutes or you wanna give a lecture or a talk, um, or you wanna help someone as the plane is coming into land, you know, once you really accept that, it begins with suggestion.

It ends with suggestion. There’s no real process that is a must. Outside of suggestion, then it gets a lot easier. Um, and perhaps it’s easy to say that once you’ve sort of picked up all of the toys and then put them all down again, , . But you know, once you, once you accept that they are not a prerequisite for what’s gonna happen via suggestion, then you can take a more leisurely approach to exactly how you shape the session and how you, um, provide this experience.

And, and, and, you know, this, this ritual, how you create this space and what you do within this space, how you adorn it, um, you know, really can be a creative process at that point. So there’s no doubt about. You will get confidence by doing this, and you may as well. You know, the, the saying from little big man that’s recently stuck in my head and I’ve been re repeating far too much.

This old film with Dustin Hoffman is today is a good day to die. And when I encourage people to kind of learn a bit about hypnosis, especially on the performance side, and we go out and we, you know, we go out in public and they start to practice with it. Even therapists, you know, often do that kind of training just to, just to stretch themselves.

You know, it’s just go and face it. Go and find out that when their hands don’t come together or their hands don’t lock or they say their name or they can get up, it doesn’t hurt that much. It’s a little bit of a, there’s a little bit of a sting, but it doesn’t last too much. If you can, if you can keep your own ego out of the way, it just kind of rolls off and you can just do it again and you can, you can improve, um, much more quickly that way.

And I think there is value, you know, I know, um, and again, especially in the US but also here in some cases that some, uh, hip therapy associations, you know, really discourage, don’t, don’t like stage hypnosis. And I get that it’s written in your code of conduct. If, if, if, if, if that’s the rule, you have to sign up too.

Fair enough. You end up having to kind of repeat it in some cases. And I’m not suggesting you have to go and start doing stage hypnosis, but equally be open to the fact that, you know, we’re passionate about this on all sides. Performers are passionate about it. Academics who no one argues amongst themselves more than more than those guys do, are absolutely passionate and fascinated about this subject as our therapists.

And none of us own the flag, and none of us should. We should learn from each other. And I, you know, I, I feel like I became a better therapist when I had done some of the performance stuff and I felt like I became a better stage performer and a better therapist when I’d done some of this kind of impromptu, um, and, and random acts of kindness type stuff.

I think it’s, um, it’s, it’s, it’s good to learn to sort of operate in, in a number of different, you know, ranges as it were. And, um, to then let that inform other parts of our practice. What’s that benefit of actually getting the, the hours, getting the, uh, the air time in terms of actually doing these strategies and seeing the results right away?

Yeah. Yeah. Outstanding. So, uh, this has been phenomenal. Thank you so much for, uh, being on here with me. Where can, uh, where can people of course, find out more about you, your trainings, your information online? Well, my name is Anthony with an H and Jack win, j a c q u i n. My website is anthony jack win.com.

I’ve run a hypnosis training company with my father, Freddie Jack Quinn, and that is the Jack Quinn hypnosis academy.com. And the technique that I mentioned, this was developed by my father and we produced, it’s our only product actually, um, from the Jacqueline Hypnosis Academy. You can find that exclusively as a download.

At the arrow technique.com and you know, I’m there on Facebook. Um, I think my, I think Anthony Jack will do it. . Um, I’ve got a number of groups, you know, and I spend too much time online and I’m reasonably well known for answering any question. So I’d love to, um, get into conversation with some of your listeners.

I really enjoyed the interview you, you asked very good questions. Oh, thank you so much. Great having you on here. Cheers. Thank you, Jason. Thank you.

Jason Lynette here once again. And as always, thank you so much for interacting with this program, and I’m gonna share the stage at the end of this, uh, as we often do. Uh, to first of all, once again, head over to the work smart hypnosis.com website and go to the show notes for this specific session because we’re gonna link in there the exact details, uh, for the JM Finley book that, uh, that Anthony was referencing there.

On top of that, you’re gonna see links to Anthony’s books as well as the, uh, the A technique program. And as always, you can check out hypnotic workers.com to learn all about my digital access training. Thanks so much, and I’ll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Work Smart Hypnosis [email protected].