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This is the Work Smart Hypnosis Podcast, session number 186, Dr. Tracy Riley on hypnotic scope of practice. Welcome to the Work Smart Hypnosis Podcast with Jason Lynette, your professional resource for hypnosis training and outstanding business success. Here’s your host, Jason Lynette. Welcome back to the program.
It’s Jason here, and this is a dialogue that I’ve been wanting to capture on this Work Smart Hypnosis series for quite some time now, and Dr. Tracy Riley nailed it in terms of really helping to clarify our scope of practice, our accepted terminology, and some really interesting nuances in terms of how it is we can work in a symbiotic way with the mental health professions and when it’s appropriate for the hypnotist to work with their client.
and when it’s appropriate to then refer out or at least help to find some other resources. And you’re gonna hear Tracy’s entire backstory, uh, in this dialogue here, coming from a background to discover social work to then become one, a social worker herself. And, uh, the entry point then into hypnosis a few years ago.
And, uh, this leads to where Tracy and I first met back at Hypno Thoughts Live 2017, and then all the way up to just recently in August, 2018, uh, graduating, receiving her doctorate in clinical psychology, uh, in Irvine, California. And you can learn more about Traci by heading over to tracy riley hypnosis.com.
But this entire dialogue of scope of practice, what’s appropriate for the hypnotist to take on. Where it is, we should exercise a bit more caution and really to, uh, look at some of the dialogues that are being had in some of the online communities, uh, across the world about, again, where it is that we can serve that benefit.
And, uh, when in doubt don’t, as my phrasing is, or as her phrasing, is to then find that opportunity to refer out and guide someone to that better experience of getting the appropriate care, satisfying some of those, um, foundational things that need that focus. And then meeting. With the hypnotist. Uh, we’re also recording this session right after Tracy did an outstanding appearance on local television, which again, we’re gonna link to that over in the show [email protected]
We can find all the details plus the links to her own website too. While you’re there online, check out hypnotic workers. Dot com. This is the All Access Pass to my online version of my Hypnosis training library, where it’s more than a hundred hours of content to help you to boost up that confidence, to learn some universal strategies for change that can be applied for practically any, let’s call it here, any appropriate situation that the hypnotist should be working with.
That, yes, I do live trainings. We’ve got Work Smart Hypnosis Live coming up in December, 2018. We’ve also got Work Smart NLP coming up in February, 2019. But if travel’s not an option or if you’re not yet needing that hands on approach, check out hypnotic workers.com. You’re able to get access for just $47.
Now with Lets jump directly into this outstanding conversation. Here we go. This is Dr. Tracy Riley on hypnotic scope of practice.
It’s interesting because when I was growing up, I always expected that I would be a teacher. That was my goal from a very young age. I thought I would be in the classroom. I loved English, I loved grammar, I loved reading. Dissecting sentences or diagramming sentences was my passion, and I always expected to be an English teacher.
And through my own personal story and experiences, I ended up a social worker. So, uh, I don’t diagram sentences anymore. Yeah. . Yeah. I, I, I think I’m, I think I’m really grateful. Um, it’s, it’s kind of tragic, but yet it has such a happy ending. I, uh, when I was 14, I was removed from the care and custody of my parents, and I was placed in a group foster home.
In Alabama. And so I was taken away because of physical abuse and I met all of these wonderful social workers that changed the path of my life. And I was like, You know what? I’ve, I’ve gotta do that. I’ve gotta be one of these people that gives back and makes difference in the lives of others. And thus I’m a social worker now.
Yeah. So what, what, is there an experience that stands out from when you say giving back, uh, something that you received from that, from that experience being around those social workers coming out of that, that, uh, that upbringing. You know, it’s interesting and when I was growing up, we had two options in, in my family system.
You were either mad or not mad. Mm-hmm. , there was no other emotion that you could. There was absolutely no other option. You were either mad or not mad, and I started meeting these social workers and I learned they would actually listen to what you had to say. Mm-hmm. . And I didn’t, I didn’t know that was a thing.
Like I didn’t know that people would actually listen to you talk and that they would allow you to have an emotion that was either mad or not mad. Like you could be happy, you could be sad, you could even be excited about something. You could even be scared and they would not make fun of you. They wouldn’t ridicule you, They wouldn’t be angry with you for having this emotion.
And I just remember this one social worker, I was sitting with her, her name was Marsha, and she just listened to me ramble on and talk for like 45 minutes. And I just, it was like the best feeling in the world. I was probably 15 at the time. I had never had that experience in my entire life. And I just remember thinking, I’ve got to do that for other people because of what that meant to me at 15, to be able to talk to someone and they just listened and it was amazing.
Mm-hmm. . Now this is where we often tend to jump around, so bring that experience to now where you’re working with people, uh, on one side as the social worker on the other side nowadays, as the hypnotist too. Um, yeah. Are, are there some opinions that have shifted around? . Well, it’s interesting because when I am working as the social worker and the therapist or the psychologist, whatever, whatever title I’m, I’m using at the moment, I am whichever cake you put on that day.
Yeah, yeah. Whatever hat I’m wearing, I am listening a whole lot more than I’m talking mm-hmm. . So if I’m doing traditional counseling, I am listening, I’m doing supportive feedback, or I’m, I’m giving them some feedback, but I’m primarily just listening and meeting them where they are, hearing their story and making sure that they feel validated at that moment and that whatever they’re feeling, I give, I give validity to it.
Mm-hmm. , when I’m the hypnotist, I don’t listen so much. I do all the talking, and that is a completely different mindset than, than what I was trained to do traditionally as a social worker. . So how do you go about making that transition? How do you go about making that shift for yourself? Well, before the person comes in, I know exactly what we’re doing.
Mm-hmm. . So from a, from a business standpoint or, or a, a mo a business model. I know what we’re doing before they walk in the door. I know when they call on the phone what they’re scheduling for. Mm-hmm. , I have a, a process on the phone where I know what they’re wanting, what they’re expecting. So when they walk in the door, if they’re coming in for hypnosis for the first time, there is gonna be a p a portion where they’re talking and I’m getting that information that I’ll be able to weave back into the hypnotic session.
And then, so they’ll talk in the beginning and then I’ll do the talking. If it’s traditional counseling, they do the majority of the talking the whole time. Mm-hmm. , is that a difficult transition to make, would you say? ? No, not now. Maybe in the beginning it was because of course as a social worker doing the mental health training we’re taught you never interrupt someone when they’re talking.
You always meet them where they are. It’s always client centered. You let them guide the entire session. And as a hypnotist you have to be the one to take charge. So in the beginning I could at times let them run on and then look at the clock and go, Oh, you know, we haven’t done what they came here to do.
But now I’m just like, Oh, that’s a great story. Let’s move on. I probably took a few, uh, plays out of the Jason Lynette playbook there, . Cause you’re very good at that. Yeah. It’s not a hard trans, Yes, it’s not a hard transition anymore. ? Well, I’d say it’s where you know it to look at it. Tell me if this is an over, uh, generalization of it though.
That’s kind of the goal of it sometimes, which is that here you are in one role, which is, I I would say that the negative perception from many in the hypnosis community, looking at the social work side would say that yes, but you’re just listening. You’re just, uh, letting them vent it, which there’s a massive value even just in that, even though that’s not just it.
Right. That’s exactly. There is massive value in letting someone vent and get it off their chest. Mm-hmm. , because once they get it out, that’s huge. If you’ve ever talked to someone about your feelings, then you know, Oh man, I feel so much better now that, now that I got that out. And there is a lot of value in that and there’s a therapeutic benefit to that.
Sometimes in traditional counseling though, that’s as far as we can go. Mm-hmm. and there’s not a lot of change work that we can do. Because sometimes, unfortunately, that’s as far as people wanna go. Yeah. And we can’t force them to go any further if that’s as far as they wanna go. So how does that shift for you in the, in the hypnotist role?
Well, if that’s as far as someone wants to go, I don’t push them. If, if people wanna go further and they say, What more can I do? I will give them the option. Now, I also don’t wanna feel like I’m selling them a product or a service, because of course insurance doesn’t pay for hypnosis. And I’m on every insurance panel there is as a traditional therapist.
Insurance does not pay for hypnosis. So I don’t ever wanna feel like I’m selling them or, you know, um, charging them for something. I will, and I will say that, I’ll say, you know, here’s an option. I want you to think about it. I want you to research it. , I want you to consider the options. You know, you’ve, you’ve been in traditional counseling for X number of months.
You’ve seen X number of therapists. You don’t feel like you’ve gotten as far as you would’ve liked. Here’s another option. Go do some research. Go check out Virginia, Hi Virginia hypnosis.com. Check out my website, check out some other websites, do some research and see if this might be a fit for you.
Mm-hmm. , I don’t give them all the information. I don’t spoon feed it to them. Yeah. I want them to come to the realization that hypnosis is going to be a good benefit for them, and I’m not gonna push it on ’em. Which, by the way, I think we now have pulled the, there’s always a game here of finding the title as we talk.
So here we go. This is Dr. Tracy Riley on Hypnotic Spoon Feeding. Um, , I love it or not. No, but I love that as the mindset as to, you know, it’s where. . Yeah. I, you, and I’ve had this dialogue before, uh, where I, I’ve built my business from the perspective that there’s people looking for hypnosis in my geographic area.
So I named my business the two biggest keywords based on that. So my clientele are typically people already looking for the service. Um, Right, Which is something that developed by accident over time, because the one that I had to quote sell it to, uh, would be a 45 minute consult to maybe come in as opposed to the one who had done their research, found me, watched all the videos, that was a seven or eight minute phone call, not for the sake of being briefed, but that’s the person I didn’t have to sell the process to.
We just had to talk about the results and how it is we’re gonna work together. So I love that you’re giving them that ability to do the research for themselves and make that decision for themselves rather than No, no, no. You need. . Exactly. Because if I push somebody into it and they say it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work because I push them into a product or a service, not because they said, I think this is gonna work for me.
And we all know that if somebody comes in and says, I know this is gonna work for me, it’s gonna work a whole lot better. Mm-hmm. than if I push them into it. Which I think that’s a fair statement even beyond our profession, that here’s the one going, um, to a doctor for something and they get the prescription.
And, you know, perhaps if the motivation isn’t really as high and we’re talking even something, you know, not massive life changing, here’s the one who gets the 10 day antibody and antibiotic and then just doesn’t follow through with it. Um, here’s the one that you know, is just kind of on the fence about something and, you know, just doesn’t let it become as big of an issue and just kind of lets it kind of skirt away as it were.
Right? And, and the people that are coming in, they already have a relationship with me. They trust me. Mm-hmm. , And I’m not going to, to, to take advantage of that and say, Hey, I’m Tracy. Trust me. Just do this. Because that puts them in a vulnerable position to just do what I say because we have that relationship.
And that actually, that’s an ethical violation of what I’ve already established with them as a traditional client. Now, the, the people that I’m seeing in traditional therapy that do decide to try the hypnosis, and there’s that word we never use . Um, when, when they do choose to do the hyp. And they have phenomenal results because I’ve had them choose to do it.
Mm-hmm. , not me, Push them in that direction and they get really good results and they’re super excited because they feel like they made the choice. And it wasn’t like your medical doctor pushing a prescription at them going, Hey, this is what you need to do, but go figure it out on your own. . Absolutely.
Absolutely. So then I, I love that because I mean, I’m going back to, here’s the Dave Ment book sitting on the shelf next to me, and he was talking to medical doctors and a lot of his dialogue was really themed around, and this was given the timeframe of when he was teaching this. A lot of that framework was, you don’t have to use the scary h word to paraphrase it.
Those are not elman’s words. Uh, but instead, let me teach you how to medically relax. So often framing it around something else would. Meanwhile, you’ve made the decision that I’m going to let it be hypnosis. I’m gonna let it be its own separate and distinct option, and here are the details. Research it for yourself.
If you want to explore that, then call me. . Absolutely. In fact, I have one, one gentleman that I had been seeing for quite some time. He had been in crisis, uh, for, for quite some time. So every, every time that he came in, we really couldn’t do a lot of change work because it was just like one situation after another.
And he started asking me for hypnosis probably six or nine months before I finally agreed to it. And I kept, I actually kept putting him off going, You know, I don’t think now’s the right time. And he finally, he’s like, Dr. Riley, please. Like, I, I just know that this is the only thing that’s going to work for me.
And so we finally, we set aside some time. I had him come in for an extended session because sometimes I will see people in big chunks of time, and I set aside a three hour, a three hour chunk of time for him. And he has been a completely different person ever since. But had I done it right when he wanted to, it wasn’t the right time.
Mm-hmm. . And so sometimes, because I already have that relationship with, with people, I can know that now’s not the right time. We need to do some, some preparation work because I know them so well that I can, can do some, some prep work with them to get them ready to hypnotic work. So I, I do, I don’t always do it right when they ask, he, I had him wait six or nine months and I’ve got another lady right now that has asked, asked me a couple of times, when can we do it?
And it’s the same situation. I’m not, she’s not ready yet. I’m not gonna say it to her that well, I’m not gonna say you’re not. I’m just going kind of God and mold her a little bit while I, while I do the, her red work behind the scenes. So how do you make that decision as to that readiness? I think some of it just comes from the intuitiveness of, I’ve been working with these people for a very long time, which is sometimes a detriment of being a traditional counselor because the change work doesn’t happen as quickly as, as you can see with hypnosis.
Um, I make the determination sometimes because they get really persistent. So when they get really persistent and I know they’ve done their homework and they’ve researched hypnosis and they say, I’ve tried everything else and I know this is what I need. The, the gentleman had experienced some trauma as a young teenager and um, some bullying and some other trauma.
I knew that wasn’t gonna change, but I knew that he wasn’t at a place in his current situation because of all the, the crises that he was going through at the moment that he could, he could focus on that right now. This other lady, she’s got some interpersonal relationship issues going on that I kind of want those to be addressed and a little more resolved before we, we real focus on her right now.
Some of it’s just intuitive of, well, the feedback they’re giving me of what’s going on in their personal life. And also we know that as hypnotist sometimes if they have some other issues going on, if there’s a grief situation going on, they haven’t addressed or resolved, they’re not gonna get those results.
And if you don’t do that proper assessment, , then a hypnotist wouldn’t know that. And sometimes that gets lost in the shuffle because I’ve already got this relationship established. I already know those things. Yeah. That I wouldn’t necessarily otherwise. Which, which, let’s come back to that whole scope of practice conversation.
Cause that’s a big part of why I wanted to have you on here this time. Uh, let’s go back in that story though, that here you were beginning the career as the social worker. Uh, when did the hypnosis appear? I started doing hypnosis about seven years ago. Very interesting story, how I met this guy. Um, it was before I met my husband.
I was dating another guy. We went to visit his coworker like four hours from my home. We we’re visiting his coworker, and the coworker had a neighbor over across the. . So I was talking to the neighbor and she said, You know, what do you do? And I said, Oh, I’m an lcs W. And she’s like, My husband is an lcs. W which is so rare that you meet an lsw and that stands for Licensed Clinical Social Worker.
So, um, he came over and he started talking to me about hypnosis. He didn’t call it hypnosis, he called it something else. Um, he called it rapid resolution therapy. Mm-hmm. that a lot of practitioners here in Florida call it. Uh, they studied, and this is where I originally originated my training with, uh, here in Florida.
and that’s where we, uh, we got our certification under the N A S W, which is the National Association of Social Workers. So many acronyms here, . Um, so we, we, he started explaining it to me and what it could do. And, and at that point I had, uh, I had finished up my certification for grief and loss, and that was 150 hours through Colorado State University that I had taken.
So I had this huge certification in grief and loss, and he’s telling me how hypnosis can help my grief patients. And I’m like, hypnosis and grief, Like, really? So he’s walking me through all of this information and he told me where I could start my training with hypnosis. And I was like, Well, I’ve, I’ve gotta know more.
So I started doing the training about seven years ago and took some training. Fascinated, loved it, started implementing it in my practice. Hit some roadblocks and thought, I don’t know what to do. Like took this training, the trainer showed us what to do. He didn’t really troubleshoot what to do if things go wrong.
Yeah. And I had some things go wrong as we have all had things go wrong, and I was like, I don’t know what to do. And so I, I kind of lost my confidence and so then I would just kind of dilly dolly with it. I would, I would reach out to some other social workers, and I gotta be honest with you, mental health clinicians are not always as nice and giving and, and genuinely forthcoming as hypnotists.
And I hate to say that about my own profession, but social workers typically keep things very close to the vest. Yeah. Why, why do you think that would be the case? I, I really just don’t get it. I don’t know. Yeah. I really don’t know. I haven’t, I haven’t analyzed that. . Mm-hmm. . But social workers do not, We’re not sharing people, which is bizarre because we’re in this field to help people and advocate for others, but we won’t help other clinicians in the field.
So it’s not like I could pick up the phone and call another clinician and say, Hey, I have this happen in my session. What would you do? Because nobody would talk, talk to me. Yeah. So it took more training. It just wasn’t clicking. And then, uh, so then I decided, you know what? I know that this can help. Let me go get some training in the more traditional hypnosis realm.
And then that’s when I started a couple of years ago, going to hypno thoughts and getting training in a more traditional setting that had nothing to do with mental health. Mm. and then that’s when, that’s when I was like, it clicked, It made sense and it, I started implementing it in almost every, every area of my practice.
Nice. So are there, are there aspects of it that even though you’re not formally doing the hypnosis, let’s say, unless the client patient is actually making that decision, has it influenced the way that you work with people even while wearing that social worker hat? Absolutely. Because I can still use it to explain how the mind works.
Mm-hmm. , even if we’re not doing hypnosis, I can use the educational components to say, Here’s what the subconscious mind is doing. Here’s what the conscious mind is doing. Here’s why you can’t stop obsessing about that thought, even though you’re trying to, you’re doing everything right. It’s not that you’re doing something wrong, this is what’s happening.
Mm-hmm. . And sometimes when people just get that little educational component, , some of that guilt goes away. Yeah. Some of that obsession they can let go of because now they’re like, Oh, I thought I was doing something wrong. I really, I’m not doing anything wrong. I’m doing everything right. This is just my brain trying to protect me, or this is my brain doing this.
It, it makes sense. They understand it. So just the educational component that I’ve learned from the hypnosis has been huge in my practice. Yeah. Well, I mean, let a person dissociate from the, the whole map is not the territory mindset that, you know, I’m not necessarily my thoughts. My thoughts are a reflection of, uh, what my brain is doing and what I’ve been kind of programmed and conditioned to do.
Um, that’s, that’s, that’s fascinating. So then nowadays, what’s kind of the shape of, let’s say your business, how it is you’re spending most of your time? I would say that it is getting increasingly more and more hypnosis only. Mm-hmm. and what I did, probably about six months ago, I used to have other therapists that worked under me and I had a psychiatrist and nurse practitioners who did medication management.
And probably about two years ago I got away from all of that and I went back to a, a single practice, just me. And then about six months ago, when I realized that I was gonna ramp up into more of a, primarily a hypnotic practice, I hired more traditional therapist. So I have right now have four traditional therapists that all work with me.
And so when people call in and they wanna do the traditional counsel, , they, they see one of those four therapists. Mm-hmm. so that I’m not taking new patients for traditional counseling, and I’m, I’m kind of mentoring those therapists to do the traditional work. Now, they’re not trained in hypnosis. They all want to be, and I haven’t, I haven’t started that.
Uh, they’ve asked, and that may be something that I do with them in the future. That’s still, uh, something I’m considering. It’s not something that I’ve, I’ve done yet. So they’re taking the traditional patients that call in, I’m primarily doing hypnosis. I would say right now it’s probably 50 50. I’m, I’m seeing my, my existing patients and then I’m adding hypnosis patients every, every week.
I think this week I’m adding seven new virtual gastric band patients that I signed up last week. Nice, nice, nice. Yeah. And that’s, is that coming from the TV appearance that you had? that is coming. Yeah, that’s coming from the TV show that I did two weeks ago. That’s coming. Yeah. Which we’re relate to that over in the show [email protected]
Yes. Yes. There was a shout out to you and Ken Goo . Um, that was a great picture. I love that picture on camera for quite some time too. . It was, it really was. So I’m not even looking at the camera or the, you know, like what they show us. I’m not looking at that. I’m looking at the host. Right. So every time I glanced back to see, like if they had put up another picture that I needed to talk about, it was like, Oh, there’s, it’s still me and Jason and Ken
Oh, yep. That’s still me and Jason and Ken . Oh, yep. They’d still up there. It was up there for quite a while. But yeah, so that show, that show got us, um, I believe to date about 10 new virtual gastric band people. And then I have my website, but other than that, I don’t do any advertising. Mm-hmm. , it has just exploded with, with virtual gastric band patients and the stop smoking people that are coming in.
I think we have three this week that are coming in to stop smoking. Yeah. So, uh, dialogue that you and I had a little while ago was, uh, on, and part of why we’re here today is, is the idea of scope of practice that, you know, we often catch that person who’s, um, you know, let, let’s phrase it this way, their hearts and the right place.
Yet sometimes we see in these Facebook groups that, Oh, I’m seeing someone with this issue. And there’s something to be said about just that scope of practice of what’s appropriate to take on, what’s appropriate to, uh, refer out. And what are your thoughts on that? . Well, their, like you say, their, their heart’s in the right place, people mean well.
I’m seeing this more and more. Even, even just recently, someone posted in, in a group and said, I’m working with this guy and I don’t have a lot of experience with this issue professionally or personally, and I’m not gonna refer him out, so don’t even suggest it. Wow, , what, what, what should I do with him?
And of course, no one said you should refer him out because she’d already, you know, put it out there. I’m not gonna refer him out. The issue was grief related. And, and, and with that being said, there is a fine line between I don’t have experience and I need some additional training. Mm-hmm. . So, so six months ago someone called me and said he was drinking too much and he wanted to know if hypnosis would help with that.
So, I said, Absolutely. Of course it will. I got him on my schedule for a series of sessions, and then I called three hypnotists that I knew and I trusted, and I said, I know you’ve got experience in this. Can you gimme some feedback? Can you gimme some guidance? Tell me what I need to do now. I acted as if I knew what I was doing, and he came in for a series of three sessions, which I learned from you.
You never do anything in a single session. You do a program, and I followed up with him this week and he’s doing amazing. He’s doing absolutely amazing. The reason that I felt comfortable is because now I’ve never done hypnosis for drinking before, however, . I have training in substance abuse. I have training in general with addicts and their families.
I just never put the hypnosis and substance abuse together. Yeah, I had training in both of them, so it was, It wasn’t that I didn’t have training in either or one or the other. I had training in both. I just needed to put them together and I needed to know how to bridge them together. So when someone doesn’t have the experience in one or the other and they’re going, I’m gonna do this anyway, even though I don’t have any training in grief, to me that is outside the scope of what you should be doing, because grief is one of those things that very well can be suited more to a traditional scope of practice for a mental health clinician, if, especially if a hypnotist does not know.
What they’re doing or has experience with it? Well, I think, let me make a generalization of something that the problem is generalization. Uh, , there’s an introduction, which is that I meet, and this was a dialogue that, I mean, here’s a class and I generalized this even further, uh, for obvious reasons that we have a class that we just recently hosted and here’s someone in the group.
That was the whole way through sharing a very polarized opinion on substance abuse, uh, programs. Just to, again, further generalize another generalization, uh, generally. So it was all coming from this place of, yes, but that doesn’t work. And to make the assessment of yes, but you’re not necessarily the one qualified to make that decision.
And I, I tend to operate from this evolutionary mindset that the things that are out there, Are still there because we found them to work for some of the people some of the time. So while, let, let’s take the example of an Alcoholics Anonymous, which first thing I’d put out there is I would fully back up the program because based on anecdotal evidence, here are clients of mind who that thing changed their life.
And here’s the experience of someone who’s in the room with me. And you’re coming into, I’m always looking for where can I pla your eyes from your own experience respectfully. Exactly. So here’s the one that, you know, I I, they’re coming into quit smoking and I find out that you’ve been sober from alcohol for 15 years.
And I ask the question of, is there an experience of making that decision to be free of the alcohol that stands out to you as really defining that choice? And when he responds, when I invited my family to come to a meeting and listen to me get up and. Right. And I saw them there and that was when it just, it clicked for me.
And I’ve been done with it ever since. And while personally labeling as the problem state doesn’t fit with me, it clearly fit with that person to make that decision. And perhaps there was a moment of, as this one actually called it, the graduation where he goes, Yeah. And eventually I just, I had the change and I stopped going and I’m fine now.
Um, Right. So, But to be from the outside going, Yes, but that doesn’t work. I think it shuts off a lot of other options. A lot of other dialogues that could be going on there that, you know, we don’t, It’s the same as there’s a person locally who got into a bit of a trouble for telling a client of theirs, Oh, don’t take the medication when you come in, when, No, you’re not the one who gave the medication.
How dare you say, . Exactly, exactly. So I have someone coming in next week and she takes a low dose of Xanax and she said, Do I take it before I come in? And I said, Did your doctor prescribe it? She said, Yes. I said, Then you do what your doctor told you to do if you think you need it, and she’s to take it prn, which is as needed.
Mm-hmm. , if you think you need to take it, you take it. If you don’t think you need to take it, don’t take it. You do what your doctor told you. I’m not the one to tell you to go against your doctor’s orders. But it becomes that mindset of some hypnotist believe they know better than another doctor or another prescriber.
Um, another, and I saw in another group that someone is working with a person who is possibly transgender and everyone was giving them. You know, accolades of, you know, this is great. You’re doing such good work. This is amazing. The problem with working with someone that’s transgender is if this person is truly transgender and they wanna go to their doctor and get hormones or surgery or, or anything along those lines to do a transition, that person needs a, a letter of recommendation from a mental health clinician that’s licensed and you can’t get that from a hypnotist.
Mm-hmm. . So while spending time with this hypnotist may be very beneficial, what’s gonna happen is when they get to the point where they wanna go to their doctor and, and progress in some areas, the doctor’s gonna say, I need this letter from a mental health clinician. And then they’ve gotta start all over someone that’s licensed and trained specifically in working with people who are transgender.
and then they’ve, they’ve gotta start all over. And then that’s, that’s not helpful to that person because they didn’t know what they needed. Mm-hmm. . And maybe it’s the, the hypnotist responsibility to know that and to say, Hey, I can help you, however, let me put you in touch with some other people that you might need on your team, because I’m not a one stop shop.
And I think that’s the biggest issue is sometimes hypnotists think that they are a one stop shop and they’re not. Yeah. Well, I, it’s again, where looking at it is to borrow the term from Melissa tier, but using, using it a different way. Um, I, not to be complimentary, but instead to be integrative, to go, we are part of a whole system and this is something that fits into it.
Uh, it, it’s where I teach my students that when in doubt, don’t. That if I’ve got , if I’ve got the concern, if I, and, and I’ve got an amazing local community here that here, and sadly one of them moved, I believe to Florida recently. Here’s the one calling in for something very clearly ongoing medically related that, uh, you know, having spent time with amazing people such as, uh, Melissa Roth and Ron Eslinger and Michael Elner, um, to know that I’ve got strategies for this person, but to not be hesitant in any way to say you’re using a lot of terminology that I don’t understand.
And here is a local hypnotist who is a retired medical doctor. So he’s not actually practicing and licensed anymore, but at least he’s gonna get what you’re talking about , Right. Would you like his. Oh, absolutely. Or here’s someone who’s calling and it’s something that is, uh, I put it in the category of recent grief and it’s something that’s going on, and they’re reaching out to me to go, Well, I think I can help you with that though.
Here is a local psychologist who also does hypnosis, and she’s phenomenal. Would you like to meet her? You know, have that introduction for somebody, Right. To give people options, but to also know, yes, I can do very good work, however, I might not be the right fit for this person or for this situation. You know, there’s, there’s some mental illnesses that probably are not a good fit for hypnosis, like schizophrenics.
Mm-hmm. , people with schizophrenia might not be the right fit to do hypnosis for various reasons. . And I saw another example of someone who said that they had a person with schizophrenia that was coming in, and this person also has grandma mal seizures. And yeah, this person openly admitted that they’re brand new to hypnosis and she was going to see them anyway.
And now on this particular situation, the overwhelmingly the, the, the feedback was do not put this person in hypnosis. Mm-hmm. . And, and the, the approach was, um, I’m just gonna see how it goes. Yeah. No , and that’s , That’s really, really not a good idea. And which I think is the, the equivalent of, Hey, watch this, but maybe, Yeah, like, Hold my beer.
Yeah, well my beer. So, and it actually reminded me of a situation. And that happened with me and I almost got myself into some hot water. So Derek, my husband, has an extended family member that they, um, he and his mom were in town visiting and Derek said, Hey, will you see this guy to stop smoking? And this was a couple of years ago before Derek really got into the training as well.
Will you see him to stop smoking? Of course. No problem. I can do that. Well, because if a family member, I thought, you know, if there was anything major, I would’ve automatically known or Derek would’ve known, he would’ve told me. So the two family members come over, Derek and the other family member, they leave.
Like they come over to our home, um, and Derek and the other family member, they leave the house. So it’s just me and this guy that wants to stop smoking and my little eight pound dog, right? Like, it’s just , just us, the house sitting in my living room. I’m gonna help this guy stop smoking. And within the first few minutes I realized this guy’s going into a psychotic episode.
I didn’t know why, but he’s talking about, um, the refrigerator turning in a projectile missile Oh, wow. And shooting over and like taking both of us out. And he’s talking about submarines blowing up and him being responsible for the murder that had happened recently in our neighborhood. And I mean, he’s just like, he’s going into a full psychotic episode.
So I’m like, I immediately, I bring him up, I bring him out, I handle the situation. I mean, very calmly, you know, just because I’m trained to do that. I’m very calm about it. I’m like, Hey, we’re gonna stop here. I’m gonna call your mom. I’m gonna call Derek. I’m gonna get them back. Um, I’m gonna make some referrals.
You know, I think, I think we’re just gonna stop here. , uh, keep smoking buddy , that’s, you’re just gonna keep on smoking cause that’s the best thing for you right now. So I, what I find out later is he’s been diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder and he was off his medication. Mm. And nobody had told me, and my fault, I didn’t ask.
Yeah. Because again, family member, I assumed if something like that was going on, I would’ve known. And, uh, I mean, that could have been really a bad situation. I’m alone in my home with this guy and I didn’t know any of this. And so we, I, I told Derek, I told the other family member, they get him back into treatment.
They get him on his medication. He’s doing great now. We worked with him a year later, he’s now not smoking. Everything’s fine. But at that moment, had I continued, had I not had the right training, I could have really caused. Him to be in a really bad situation. He could’ve caused harm to me. Like it could’ve just went really, really bad, and part of it would’ve been my fault because I didn’t do the right assessment to know his mental health.
Yeah. So yeah, taking this whole, Let’s just see how it goes. Approach. Not a good idea, especially when you’re in new hypnotist and especially when you don’t have the proper mental health training. So what recommendations would you make for somebody who’s getting a call and I mean, uh, just briefly, I mentioned here’s a guy who did call up and was very open about it, but didn’t use the terminology cuz it hadn’t yet been labeled that he goes, um, hey I’ve been, I have these voices in my head and they’ve been recently getting a little angry and uh, saying some rather, uh, violent things.
Do you think he could help me with that? And I decided to match him and go, Yeah, I can help you with that though. I think my friend Jeff could be a better fit for that. Would you like Jeff’s number? And I left out that changing the name Jeff is doctor this person who is a local psychiatrist. Um, which the story does have a fun ending of getting a email, which the person called me a smart ass.
Um, but thanked me for that cuz he goes, You didn’t tell me you were referring me to a doctor. Cuz if you told me that I would’ve hung up on the phone. But instead I called your friend Jeff and scheduled anyway only to realize, oh, this is where I’m going. Huh? That’s the exact perfect way to handle it because people with schizophrenia, they’ve already, and, and it’s, it’s a catch 22 because yes, schizophrenia is a label.
Unfortunately, we do have labels for a reason, because it explains a, it explains the symptoms. It’s easier to say this person has schizophrenia than to say this person has these 10 symptoms. So we do use it as a label, but the label is helpful. And so I think that’s the perfect thing because if you say Yes, I can help you with that, but my friend Dr.
Smith, can help you a whole lot better. They’re not gonna follow through, but my friend Jeff can definitely help you with that better. They’re gonna trust that it’s your friend. They’re gonna trust that this guy can help you better, and they’re gonna be more willing to go on your recommendations. And so that’s the perfect way to handle it.
A lot of doctors, they just wanna medicate. If it’s somebody you already have a relationship with, then they’re gonna be much more likely to follow through. And that’s the, is that, that’s the point of it though. It’s so important for the hypnotist to get out in their community and meet the mental health clinicians and meet the doctors, and meet the, the dentist and the acupuncturists, and meet the team in their community so that they can say, I want you to go see my friend, this person, because I know they can help you and make that connection for them, because that’s really what it’s all about.
At the end of the day. It’s not, I’m the one stop shop and I can help everybody with every issue. It’s, I can help some people with some things, and if I can’t, I know where I can send you to get the best help. Because at the end of the day, it really is about helping people that we meet, helping them where they are, helping them with their issue, and helping everybody be the best person they can be.
So there’s a natural follow up to this, which is that what if it is that brand new hypnotist and they don’t yet have that, uh, that, that, that community. Yet, I think the best thing to do in that instance would be take their information, tell them that, you know, I, I definitely can help you. Let me get your name and number.
Let me give you a call back. What’s a good time for me to call you back so that I can talk with you more about this? , make that time to call them back and then get, find out who’s in my area. Mm-hmm. , who can I connect this person with? Don’t leave them. Hang in, get on the phone. Start finding out who can I connect this person with, because I mean, I’ve, I did that, you know, when the guy called me and said, Can hypnosis help me stop drinking?
Absolutely. Of course it can. Well, let me get you on my schedule. And in the, you know, the two weeks before he came in, I made every phone call I could. I started researching, preparing everything that I needed to make sure that I really could help him get the help that he needed. So it’s not a matter of, you know, saying, Oh, well I really don’t know what to tell you.
You know, Good luck with that piece out. it, it, it, it’s doing the due diligence. I mean, this person picked up the phone and called. You, you, you can’t leave them hanging. They, that’s huge for somebody to pick up the phone and call you. They’ve, they’ve made a connection with you somehow through your website, through a referral from someone else.
They’ve made a connection with you. You’ve got to do your part to help them. . Yeah. I chair, at least what I’ve done up until nine, I really like that response better than what mine has been. Uh, . My mine is at least giving the, the, the expectation that the person is gonna get a benefit, yet I don’t yet have the resource.
Uh, so the phrasing around. Um, so unfortunately I don’t yet have a resource. I, I don’t actually, I just call it out. I don’t think I’m qualified to help you out with that. And unfortunately at the moment, I don’t yet have a resource for you to recommend though. As soon as you find something that gets you on the other side of this, please call me back immediately.
So I’ve got that reference for people in the future, which is at least plant the seed that, you know, they’re gonna find something. So it’s not leaving them two out to dry, but it’s least, um, slightly damp . Well, the benefit, the benefit in my office is I do have two front down. You have? Yes. Yeah. So, So if I’m not probably gonna be the one that that looks.
For this person to help them. But I have staff and I can say, Hey, we’re looking for this person. Go in this direction, See what you find. Let me know and I’ll tell you if you’re going in the right direction. So I do have people that can help me with that. Um, so it, it is in my office at least a team approach.
If you’re working by yourself, you are a little bit more limited in what you can do. Mm-hmm. . Got it. Got it. But even, even in some of the other posts, um, and, and I don’t mean to just, I mean this, these are not just Facebook posts, but even in some of the other conversations that I’ve had with people hypnotists, they seem there seems to be a very, very much a territorial position between hypnotist and mental health clinicians.
I promise you that mental health clinicians, Are not phased by hypnotists in the same way that hypnotists do not seem to be very, uh, interested in, in mental health clinicians. I’m probably not saying that right. Mental health. Mental health clinicians do not think twice about a hypnotist. Yeah. But hypnotists seemed very threatened by mental health clinicians, and I don’t know, I don’t know why that is.
I don’t know why hypnotists seem threatened by mental health clinicians. Um, I also heard about the, the hypnotist whose doctor would not approve for the hypnotist to work with a, a person with schizophrenia. The doctor said, No, I don’t want you to work with this person. To do hypnosis and the hypnotist said, Well, I’m gonna do it anyway.
Hmm. And, and I don’t, I don’t recommend that either. Yeah. No, that’s, that’s frowned upon. That’s not how we make friends . That’s a nice way. Put it. Yeah. The doctor’s never gonna send you someone. He has a good, he has a reason now. It may or may not be a good reason. It’s a reason. Mm-hmm. . And so my recommendation would be get in front of that doctor, find out what the reason is.
It may be something simple, it may be something absurd. You won’t know unless you go through the efforts of, of getting in front of this doctor, building a relationship with this doctor, finding out why do you not want me to see this person? People with schizophrenia have very few coping skills and sometimes as bad as smoking is, it’s one of their very few coping skills.
And so some doctors, and I used to work with people with schizophrenia back when I was working on my, my master’s degree. . Um, that’s, that, that is some of their few coping skills. Caffeine and nicotine. That’s, Yeah. Sometimes that’s all they have. And that might just be what the doctor wanted him to do because that’s all he had.
If they have no family, if they have no resources, if they have no income, they have no education and they’re on, um, whatever state benefit or federal benefit plan that they are on, that might just be all they have. You take that away. What, what do they have left? And so if a doctor says, Don’t see my patient as the hypnotist, I believe it’s very important that we respect that and we honor that doctor’s recommendation.
And don’t go against that because then that doctor will never send you a referral. Mm-hmm. . And that’s what we want. We wanna build a team with our doctors. We want our doctors to be referring up people to us. I mean, I work with a psychiatrist here that, um, , he sends me people to stop smoking and I send people to him who I believe have schizophrenia or who have depression, or who have a mood disorder.
We constantly refer people back and forth. He sends me people for traditional counseling, even though he knows I’m not gonna be the one to see them, that somebody in my office is, He still sends me people, and then he sends people that he wants to stop smoking directly to me. So we, we have that, and I’ve actually never met him face to face.
We’ve been referring people back and forth for almost two years. We’ve never met face to face. Mm-hmm. . But we talk on the phone at least once a week. Nice. Which, which is really the way the relationship should be playing out. I mean, I keep this one easily, uh, generalized here. That here though is a local psychiatrist that’ll occasionally call up and go, I’ve got someone with this issue.
How would you Hypnotically help that? And Right. Sometimes it gets to a very creative place and he has responded twice now to go, Yeah, could we schedule this when I can come sit in the room and watch, uh, ? Yeah. Which I think is just more of the fascination of, you know, shifting perspectives of things and working in a slightly provocative way at doing so under his guidance.
Right. You know, the one who’s coming in who is extremely obsessive compulsive, that’s calling with the desire or reaching out with the desire of, I can recognize that three packs of cigarettes a day is excessive, but I don’t want to quit. I think I’d be happy with just three cigarettes a day. Right. Which, He didn’t say he wanted to quit.
He wanted to go from 60 a day down to three a day. And I’m listening to him going, Okay, so part of the OCD mentality is about, you know, having rules. We just need to establish a new one. And he pauses and goes, So you’re gonna use his condition as a resource? I go, Uh, if that’s what’s gonna help. He goes, Can I watch
Um, which, which again, I mean, I’ve only ever had. Uh, and I will send out doctor letters at times where appropriate, and I’ve only really had one ever that, you know, initially did not want to sign the paperwork and for a decent reason that he has a local, uh, practice with other people in. There’s sort of a whole integrative wellness thing where they have a massage therapist, they have an acupuncturist, and the acupuncturists have been trained in hypnosis.
So go see this person and come to find out she’s only done a two day intro to hypnosis class and recommended to her instructor. I. Uh, which also turned out to be me and they eventually signed the paperwork. But I can , I can agree with that decision from the first stance of going, Well, let’s keep it in house.
That way everybody’s on the same team, right? You don’t have to leave this practice. We have someone in the room and meanwhile, that was just a sampler course too. Let’s call it out. Promote the bigger course. Um, right. But that was the working level of knowledge that she was looking to get to at least get people over some initial concern around the needles in acupuncture, which that’s what she was looking for.
That’s what she received. And eventually the person then ended up working with me. So, And any other specific recommendations for, for that hypnotist who sort of on the fences to the Should I, shouldn’t I? Question? I, I, I love what you said. When in doubt don’t, because just because you refer this one person out doesn’t mean.
The hypnotist is weak, doesn’t know what they’re doing, is gonna be a failure. Doesn’t mean that they’re, they’re not a wonderful hypnotist in some other area. It just means that in this particular situation, they’re just not the right fit. You, you cannot possibly be everything to every person. And I think as a hypnotist, you have to be able to recognize your strengths and your limitations and go where you’re good, but you just can’t be everything to every person.
And that’s gonna get a hypnotist in a lot, a lot of trouble, especially the hypnotist. And I see this all the time, that say, Yeah, I know I’m not the right fit, and I know this is outside of what I should be doing, but I’m gonna do it anyway. Those are the ones that scare me the most because they know they shouldn’t be doing it.
They know it’s outside the scope of their practice and they don’t care. They’re gonna do it anyway. And that is very scary for, that can get them in trouble. That can do more harm than good. And nothing good comes from that. And that makes our whole profession look shady. So since most of our audience are actually the hypnotist, let’s end it on a, uh, positive note for them.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know, I know, I know. You know what? And, and it, and it’s, it’s a little dicey because I know I probably stepped on some toes. That’s not my intention. Well, I think it’s one that he, somebody has to say it stepped on. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it’s where I heard somebody has to say, I had a student years ago who calls me up and I kind of catfished him and how I responded cuz he goes.
I’ve got a guy who wants to come with me because he wants to go off his medications because he’s convinced they’re making him suicidal and he doesn’t want his doctor knowing about it. What do you recommend? I do and I decided that, let me, you know, dig a little deeper to set up for what about, respond to it and go.
Do you think you’ve got some things that’ll help him out? Oh yeah. Absolutely. Uh, what, what strategies are you thinking about using? Well, you know, I just did the whole parts therapy training. I think that’s gonna be a good fit. Oh yeah. I can see where that, we’re having a dialogue and I’m just asking questions and finally hit him with, So is it worth, um, going to prison for this guy?
Right. Is it worth it not working and ending his life and having that on you, the rest of your, uh, existence. Yeah. Now, so what do you think you should do? He goes, I think I’ll have him talk to his doctor. I go, Yeah, that’s what I told you three weeks ago and you went through my course. Um, . So, So, but to bring it all together, what are those, um, what are those things that you feel we as the hypnotist perhaps work with best?
I think hypnotists do really, really well with, uh, stop smoking with weight, release with e even trauma, with, with anything that doesn’t have to do with a mental health disorder. I think, I think a hypnotist can definitely help someone relieve their depressive symptoms. I don’t think a hypnotist should ever say that they cure someone.
Yes. Or that they treat someone. I think a hypnotist should phrase things in such a way that they’re staying far, far away. Any medical or mental health jargon. So I help alleviate symptoms. I help people stop smoking, I help people release weight. Things that are just very far away from the line of me.
Medical issues or mental health, although a lot of things hypnotists do actually bump right up against that line. I just wouldn’t advertise it, and I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t like let, you know. I, I just wouldn’t advertise it in such a way that it, it crosses the line and it makes people think that you’re trying to act as if you have a medical license.
Even, even though all the training and education and experience that I have, if someone comes to me and says, Hey, I wanna go off my medication, what do you think? I think I’m not a medical doctor and I think you should talk to your physician about that. That is outside the scope of my practice and I can’t talk to you about that.
Outstanding. I, I won’t, Yeah, I won’t have that conversation with someone. Yeah. I mean, even down to here. Uh, I work with kids and study issues, and here’s the question of, uh, well, should he go off the Ritalin? Should he go off of this? Or that’s like, Well, that’s really not what I do. Chat with the doctor or the person going, Hey, my blood pressure’s a lot lower now that I’ve lost the weight.
Should I go off that? I don’t know. You should probably chat with your doctor about that every time. That’s just, just the safest be mm-hmm. because the, they, this person will go back to their doctor and say, and the doctor will say, Why’d you go off your medication? Oh, the hyp just said I should. And you, you wanna say far, far away from any inclination that you even hinted that you should go off your medication because that patient will out you.
And if you’ve got the right doctor, they will be furious. So, which I’m now flashing back to, I think the one time I’ve officially overstepped my boundaries, um, on the phone where a person calls up and goes, I want to come to you to quit drinking coffee. And my initial response is, it’s like 8 45 in the morning when the phone rang and I was available.
So, and my first response actually was why, uh, which I probably could have phrased that in a more healing, more positive way as to, well, what’s the benefit, what’s the specific goal of doing that? And instead, I hear, Well, my friend said it’s not good for me, and I’m now hearing the, uh, the false science background and going, Okay, well, have you looked into that yourself?
Well, no. Okay. Well, if it’s just a matter of your friend and I’m shooting myself in the foot business wise here, , if, if that’s something your friend is recommending, perhaps you should do the research for yourself. Has it been causing any challenges for you? Oh, no, not at all. O okay. and eventually this person calls up three weeks later to go, Hey, it turns out my friend was trying to sell me some multi-level marketing tea supplement instead
And, uh, I did some research and it turns out, actually, uh, the coffee’s pretty good for me, given some of my goals right now. Hey, can I come to you for weight loss ? Oh, that’s too funny. So having that ability to at least, uh, you know, chunk down and get into the specifics of something to find out why. Uh, so on that note, where can, uh, where can people find out more about you online?
My new website has been redone. It’s gonna roll out this week, www.tracireillyhypnosis.com. Outstanding. And we’ll link to that over in the show [email protected] Plus we’ll link to the actual recent, uh, TV appearance as well. The Jason Ette, Ken Gutu appearance on local Florida to television featuring Traci.
Awesome. Dr. Tracy Riley. Dr. Tracy Reilly. There you go.
Jason Lynette here once again, and as always, thank you so much for interacting with this program. Thank you for leaving your reviews online, sharing it on your social media streams. Once again, head over to the Work Smart Hypnosis website to watch Dr. Tracy Riley’s recent appearance, talking about hypnosis and weight loss.
And also, again, check out hypnotic workers.com. It’s the all access pass to my hypnosis training library online, featuring techniques for change, instant and rapid inductions, plus real client sessions fully transcribed. Ready, free to model and learn from. That’s hypnotic workers.com. See you on the inside.
Thanks for listening to the Work Smart Hypnosis Podcast and work smart hypnosis.com.