Session #200: Adam Eason on Hypnotic Evidence

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This is the Work Smart Hypnosis Podcast, session number 200, Adam Eon on hypnotic evidence. Welcome to the Work Smart Hypnosis Podcast with Jason Lynette, your professional resource for hypnosis training and outstanding business success. Here’s your host, Jason Lynette. Break out the party balloons. It’s Jason Lynette here, and here we go.

This is episode. 200 of the Work Smart Hypnosis podcast, several years in the making and making the decision on this one to actually share the stage with somebody that I’ve been wanting to have on this program for quite some time. And if you go into the show notes [email protected], the show notes attached to this episode, we’re gonna link over to when Adam had me on his podcast several years ago.

And we’ve been back and forth for years. Finally getting to meet in person at the 2018 UK Hypnosis Conference. And there’s a big, uh, sort of reason as to why I’m positioning Adam here on episode number 200, which we find ourselves all in a rather interesting point in time in this hypnotic profession. Uh, a point in time, at least for me personally, that, uh, timing wise, this episode is coming out the Thursday before my book Work Smart Business Launches.

And yes, this episode could have been entirely. Self-promotion in terms of that upcoming project, which of course you could head over to work smart business.com to learn all about that. Of course you can. But really to look at the state of things in terms of this profession, and I’d kind of put things in a metaphor, as we often do in part of this introduction, that I left the career in theater about 10 years ago, a little over 10 years ago at this point.

And yes, there was some overlap where I was doing hypnosis, part-time, working with clients, traveling in the country, doing school programs. And there came a point in time of realizing, Oh damn, I’m actually doing better off with the part-time job than the full-time job and burning out beautifully with the full-time job.

So time to move on. I wanna talk about the theater environment for a brief moment. Which is that, and this perhaps is not just a theater thing, let’s call it a organizational thing, something that often nonprofits work with. My uh, wife worked in development in nonprofit arts for several years as well, and just kind of an across the board thing that you start to notice.

And the nickname for this is what’s called founder syndrome. That it comes down to the idea that perhaps in an arts company, maybe here is the artistic director who founded the company many years ago. And here we go 40, 50 years later and is still operating under the same values, under the same goals.

And while. The membership may have grown over the years. The attendance that the events may have grown, something is still kind of stagnant and it’s where I can name theater companies that I worked with in the old career that, uh, not because I worked there, no, but theater companies that now no longer exist.

And it’s because even I was, even as I was there, I mean, as an intern looking around and going, Wow, your advertising still looks like the 1980s. You’re still communicating with the world around you, as if it’s the seventies. And it’s really that lesson that what got you started is not necessarily the thing that’s gonna move you forward.

Now, of course, be grateful of the experiences that you’ve had. And as a personal note, I went through an extremely dismissive timeframe in my life of looking at the fact that I had majored in theater in college, and then the time I spent in that career and almost trying to erase it and disconnect from it until realizing, okay, this whole systematic way that I look at my business and how I work with my clients and how I organize my life, that’s something that that career helped to refine.

So, you know, soft skills, something to be gained from it. But we find ourselves at this bit of a renaissance in the profession where there were some, let’s call it out big names that used to be the dominant voice that now just don’t quite fit in anymore because they’re out there preaching. This is the one thing that works and that’s the way it has to be and mean.

The thousands of everybody else has clearly seen otherwise organizations where attendance is dropping because, well, this is the way we’ve always done it and clearly no it’s not anymore. So to look at this nature of, you know, even as we progress as the individual, I was just wrapped up yesterday, uh, work Smart Hypnosis live training, and of course learn more at Work Smart hypnosis live dot.

Hey, you brought it up. So , looking at it from, here’s a student of mine that I offer, that those people who have gone through the class are able to come back at no extra charge, provided it’s my own hosted event. And here’s a student who came in, uh, came into the class once again, and I’m able to highlight to him, Hey, this part’s different.

Here’s the new segment. I’ve combined these two pieces together because this is how I’ve been work shopping with my clients. And also, remind me, please, to grab my video camera. In fact, these new modules are already inside of hypnotic workers.com. So to look at that progression, you know, I can think of times where years ago, uh, and maybe I have a mindset at times too, as I like to say, nerd.

Over certain, uh, things in the profession. Many years ago I brought Roy Hunter into town to do, uh, parts therapy and a regression training. And someone in the local community goes, Oh yeah, I took that class years ago with someone else. I don’t need to come to that. And I’m there looking at going. Sweet.

You’re gonna do two days of parts therapy. Oh man, that’s gonna be awesome. And someone else is going, How are you gonna get two days outta that? Well, he did. It’s a great workshop. So again, looking at it from that progression, how do we get better at it? How do we challenge that model? And to highlight back to Adam Eon here, he talks about publishing a book, which is now still out there yet it’s got a lot of themes that he doesn’t quite believe in anymore in the writing of work Smart business.

Kind of driving myself to unpack. Okay, so I started this whole work smart idea back in like 20 12, 20 13, and having to really define what the hell did I mean by that in the first place. And you know, through the writing of that book and the revisions of it, the, the line from the writer, director, producer, Judd aau, that writing is rewriting really became a.

And even having to challenge my own definitions in terms of how we measure success in business, how we measure success with our clients, and looking at it from that unique perspective that here I am as a hypnotist, and why should other people outside of this category listen to what I’ve got to say? So again, positioning.

Here we are with, with episode number 200 of this series, uh, a series that quite honestly evolved over time. Uh, I, I don’t tend to use the word interview anymore. These are conversations and at times it’s a real give and take and a sharing of ideas. And even Adam and I in this dialogue get on topics about how do we respectfully disagree with certain themes in order to move things forward?

Uh, even he at one point saying, Yeah, there’s someone who’s said they wouldn’t have me on their podcast because I’m gonna say they might be wrong. Which again, we should be open to that idea. Uh, the infomercial line. There’s got to be a better way, you know, continue to improve that model, challenge what’s working, and find those ways to level up your game year after year.

So, a little bit longer of a preamble. This week is, uh, part of the festivities of episode number 200, though I challenge you. Look at. Your belief systems at this moment. Look at what you say, what’s working? Look at where the information comes from. And I mean, at one point there was a moment where I put this program on hiatus because I had published an episode that was not what I wanted this program to be.

And that episode is still out there. It’s not the one that I recently deleted because the person I had interviewed, uh, turned out to be fabricating the backstory. That’s a whole other story he asked me privately. But again, there’s a point in time of going, No, no, no, let’s sit down, let’s have a real conversation.

And that’s where, you know, I had Chris Jones from America’s Scott Talent in the program, having Melissa Tears on the program, which, uh, by the way, uh, Melissa, if you’re listening, you were supposed to be episode number 200, but you’re in Mexico right now and Adam is just as awesome. So here we go. With that, let’s jump in.

Thank you everybody for listening all these years. Head over to work smart hypnosis.com/itunes and leave an honest review of the program. We recently, uh, really jumped up with reviews on that. Platform, which thank you for that. Share this on your social media stream, stick it on your my place MySpace and your friend store and your members.

Dot aol.com. See what I did there. Things moving forward. with that, here we go. Thanks everybody for listening. Episode number 200, Adam Eon on hypnotic evidence.

So this was something that I, I’d never planned to do. It absolutely was something that, that, that wasn’t, wasn’t kind of on my radar, on my, on, on my gender, in, in life, in any shape or form. Um, um, um, whilst at university or, or, or just kind of in the lead up to university. Um, I, I, I had a skin disorder and, uh, I, I went to see a hypnotherapist simply because somebody very, very close to me had had some great success with some mental health issues, um, with this particular hypnotherapist.

And so, and so I went and my skin cleared. And, um, um, I then went and did a, a self hypnosis training with, um, with that, with that, with that same individual who’s very, very charismatic man. Um, somebody I’m still in contact with today, and this was like 25 years ago. And, um, um, I went to university and just spent the entire time at university wanting to learn more about hypnosis and hypnotherapy rather than, um, social policy and politics and psychology and, and everything else that I, I was in a kind of conventional sense that I was examining at the time.

Um, and, and, and, and just ended up, uh, uh, you know, as soon as I stepped out of university, I, I worked, or rather, I was employed for one single year of my life while I trained. Then as soon as I had the certificate, um, I, I, I set up an office and, and became a hypnotherapist there and then, and probably rather naively, Um, if I’m honest, because, you know, I, I knew nothing really about the world and I, you know, beyond, beyond the, the rather, you know, youthful existence that I’d had up until that point.

And, um, at the same time I was, you know, so as having that kind of naive about, about just life in general, you know, I didn’t have a huge amount of experience, um, and, and really knew nothing about business. And, um, spent a couple of years sort of just, just about getting by, but getting into a bit of debt and, um, and really struggling as, as a hy a therapist.

And, um, I had a couple of sort of pivotal. Experiences, um, in, in those, those first five years where, um, one which involved, um, guy over there in the US a man called Kevin Hogan, who very kindly mentored me at the embryonic stages of my career and helped me get out of debt and, and just kind of develop my business a little bit.

Um, I mean, we, we used to use MSN Messenger in those old days. You know, when everything costs, everything, costs cost. 2:00 PM was made of wood. Um, I, I’m back, back in those kind of olden times, and, and he, he used to say to me, Look, look, you know, do the stuff that I recommend. If you don’t do it, don’t bother getting back to me, kind of thing.

Mm-hmm. . Um, um, and he was incredibly insightful and it was, it was revelatory for me. And, um, um, a few years later, um, um, I, I worked with a man and studied, did some, did some professional development studying with a man called Donald Robertson, um, who just kind of transformed the way I thought, made me start adhering to some kind of critical thinking, made me start examining evidence based approaches and, and basically led to me rejecting virtually everything I had done up until that point.

Um, um, and, and really kind of like shedding a thick skin and, uh, and, and, and really just kind of transforming everything that I did and I went in a very particular direction and, um, um, that, that led me and continues to, to lead me and drive me today. Um, so, so it basically, in the process of developing my business, I wrote a book.

Um, I’m, I’m thanks to, to Kevin and Kevin’s kind of drive and, and, and guidance, um, um, today. However, I, I’m rather embarrassed by that particular book because it was built on very flawed concept or, or concepts that I considered to be flawed today. Mm-hmm. , um, with, with a real kind of absence of evidence to support it.

Um, the typical and rather, you know, numerous classic notions, they’re still proliferated, um, um, heavily within the field today. Um, um, but, but you know, the, the, the book itself, um, thanks to a, an Amazon, you know, old school Amazon promo that we did back then with a bunch of marketers, people like Joe Tari and Kevin Hogan, people with really big, big list.

Jeffrey Gier, for example, um, um, um, that, that had really big lists in those days, helped promote my book. Um, and it got to number one at Amazon. Um, um, and, and because it had done so well commercially, it meant that it, it, it, it had a lot of close scrutiny in those early days and I received a bunch of messages from people just kind of questioning some of the central tenants of the book.

And, and, and the more I explored some of the things that they were saying, I was, you know, I was. I was offended, um, is the correct word to use, you know, you know how dare somebody question a central premise of my book, . Yeah. Um, um, and, and I was offended and so I went off to seek, to seek some defense, um, of, of my, of my point.

And recognized there was just this massive vacuum with regards to defending the central tenant of the book. This notion of of of a subconscious mind and hypnosis being an altered state of consciousness. And it really struggled to, to support it. And it was a similar time. So, so there I was with this best selling book that I couldn’t support and, and just found rather, rather disingenuous now and, and, and then met, like I said Donald Robertson and started to become very interested in, in, in, in exploring the, the evidence base that’s kind of led me in, in a very different direction.

And, um, in those early days I found it quite difficult to, to be really staunch evidence based, to, to be a real strong proponent of non-state sociocognitive perspectives, for example. And. And, and there was a lot of, a lot of sniping that I was on the receiving end of. And, um, and, and, and a lot of defense, a lot of people out there within the field that wanted to protest against some of the things that I was saying.

And, um, and, and gradually over the years, I think that has softened as my, as my stance, um, and, and as my approach to, to, to the way in which I’m able to structure my argument has become more sophisticated over the years. Um, um, and, and yeah, you know, that’s kind of, you know, some broad strokes with regards to the sort of direction and journey that I’ve been on, if you like.

Um, Um, you know, I, I think these days where I’m at is, you know, kind of fighting a sort of pseudo cult of anti-intellectualism and what I would consider to be ignorant within the field of hypnotherapy that I think, which I think there is a lot of, um, I’m, you know, I fight a lot of people that I think have a huge amount of cognitive bias within the field of, of, of frontline hypnotherapy.

And my attempts have been, you know, probably over the last decade primarily have been to sort of close this chasm, this gap that exists between the frontline hypnotherapy field and, and academia. And, um, I have a lot of close friends in academia. A lot of really, um, well known. Uh, ac academics within the field of, um, um, hypnosis and hypnotherapy research, you know, university professors and, and prominent researchers and, and, and, and making the frontline hypnotherapy field aware of them and them, aware of the frontline hypnotherapy field has been kind of a little bit of my, uh, a driving force of mine, for example, um, in more recent times and, and looking to promote critical thinking and having people question what it is they’re being taught and having people think that, you know, just because they got that, that, that, that they have invested in a particular thought process at a particular school of thought that perhaps, you know, they don’t need to be entrenched in that.

So, so dogmatically, Right, And this is one of those topics that’s part of why I invited you on here, but looking at. You know, looking at concepts that we would hold onto. And, you know, there’s so many things that I’d say we’d, you know, we’d learn in a class, we’d read in a book. And it’s like, well, why? It’s like, well, because the book says so well, because step four of this six step process says I should be doing this.

And here’s why though. There’s a bit of a balance to that and I’d love to have this chat with you around this that, to look at that balance around, you know, there’s an expectation from the client side of things that whether as powerful as our pre-talk can be, as persuasive as it can be, they’re calling a hypnotist because they have the perception in some way, let’s call it out, that we are the person who could help them to do things they normally would not do.

And I’d give a simple reference that, you know, we can, we can unpack any single technique and inside of that technique there’s a lot of other things that are going on. Uh, so by a simple example, let’s take EFT and there’s a sequence of EFT I may sometimes use with my clients. That, yes, there. Here’s the air quotations.

There may be something going on in terms of an energy system of the body, yet from a hypnotic, let’s even call it out theatrical perspective. That moment of stepping in closer and staring them down when the process begins. Started to produce a different result. So what’s that balance between, as, uh, out of Roy Hunter’s, uh, Art of Hypnosis, he talks about the B I C E formula, belief, imagination, credibility, expectation.

So kind of bringing in that belief and expectation. How do we measure the cognitive side of that? How do we get into the evidence based side of. Of harnessing that side of it. Well, you know, um, um, um, belief and expectation are central to, uh, a socio cognitive perspective. By the way. I, I’m in no position whatsoever to, to comment upon things like eft.

I, you know, I don’t consider myself qualified to know to, to really know anything about that, that side of things. Um, I would say, I would say that you, you know, I know a little bit, um, and also I struggle to know what it really is to do with, um, that the professional sphere of competence with regards to, to what a hypnotherapist does or, or rather should be doing.

I think people should, should, should invest themselves, um, um, in learning much more about what they’re actually doing with regards to hypnotherapy. Then that, that, that then investing too much time and effort on things. Um, um, the, the. That I’m not really too sure how they’ve become so connected and intertwined within, within our skill set.

Yeah. Especially, especially when we see that sort of, uh, business card with the list of 15 different modalities in the back of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I struggle, I struggle with that. Um, There’s enough, you know, I, I think that that diploma level training. Is inadequate these days. You know, I just think a lot of people take a diploma.

I think that, that, that then entitles them to a career. You know, they spend 10 months doing it, for example, or sometimes even less engaging in that particular diploma. And, um, I think they’re entitled to a career that, that competes alongside psychologists or psychiatrists or conventional, you know, uh, medical professionals that have spent and dedicated years and years of their life to their training and, and their skill and so on.

And, and some people even within our field, after their 10 month of training, even after the audacity to go around entitle themselves a master, um, or something like that. Anyway, so, so if I come back to your question, if you excuse my digression there, I’m, I would say that, um, um, yeah, you know, I think belief and expectation are at the heart.

So, you know, my own conceptualization these days as far as hypnosis is concerned is very much non-state. It’s very much ordinary and a lot of people, you know, I think find it upsetting that it is so, so ordinary and so sober. Um, and, and, and a kind of central ethos of, of my business is to, to undersell and over deliver.

Um, um, and, and not just in terms of my service, my business, my college, the training that I do, the, the information that I disseminate, my own research that I disseminate, for example, but also, With regards to the way in which I conceptualize hypnosis, I, I really object to people conceptualizing it is magic.

In the first instance, I would rather undersell and describe it as something very sober, a cognitive skill, for example. And part of that, that skill, part of that skill is really about. Uh, you know, sort of marshing corralling a number of modulating factors that are based in grounded in really good psychological science.

So, so, so teaching someone to adopt a very particular mindset that becomes a cognitive skill equates to hypnosis. Now, I’ve used a lot of multi multisyllabic words in there, but you know, I’m not gonna use the same kind of language with my client. So I’m assuming that your audience are, are, are of a high brow, high brow nature and, and, and know what it is that I’m talking about here.

Yes. And so, um, um, within my explanation to the client, I will be, I, I’ll be conceptualizing hypnosis in terms that it’s, that it’s a skill that requires them to adopt a very particular mindset that advances the. Their receptivity and their suggestibility. Um, um, I also, um, this will be a sort of digression.

I dunno if we’ll get the opportunity to talk about any of my research while, while we’re speaking, um, today. But, but you know, I also think that self hypnosis goes before hetero hypnosis rather than the other way around. Um, um, but, but so for me, teaching self hypnosis is the kind of primary. Driver within therapy is, is, is important to me.

Um, um, and, and my research tends to support that. And that’s the reason that I, that I live by that. But when we’re conceptualizing hypnosis as this particular mindset, therefore I wanna speak to people about creating expectation. Um, and, you know, it’s a cognitive skill. And so if, you know, I wanna talk to ’em about creating a certain degree of expectation, um, I’m creating a certain amount of almost like self deception for want of a better expression, whereby, You know, when we talk about volition in terms of classic suggestion effects, um, um, that people can, can apply some volition in order to create it and create the effect, but then convince themselves that they, that they did it, that it happened or it occurred non volition, for example, which I may be getting ahead of you on this one, but that’s kind of the nature of what their problem already is.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. There’s that self deception of I can’t stop this thing and yet, Yes, you could. And I’m gonna help you find ways where you could do it on your own. Yeah, precisely. Precisely. And so, and you know, so at the heart of, of a lot of my work is always this a kind of secondary GA goal and aim is always going to be to create self-efficacy.

Um, um, for, for, for your listeners that are not fully aware or fully versed on the notion of self-efficacy, um, it’s something that, that, that has a really strong evidence base that was developed by Albert Bandura, um, in the seventies, eighties and nineties. Um, um, and, and went something along the lines. It started off in sports psychology and then is kind of moved into therapeutic fields and all kinds of things.

Um, I mean, it’s this notion that the more you believe in your ability to do something, the more your actual ability to do that thing is raised. You know, And, and your belief and your confidence and your ability to do that thing basically creates this kind of cycle, this virtuous cycle whereby you become better at it.

So, Within a therapy room, if the client begins to, to, to see some results and develops, um, a belief in their ability to get better, thus their actual ability to get better begins to raise and increase. So for me, um, you know, a natural way to be able to do that is to, to give people evidence of what they’re doing and what they’re capable of doing within the self hypnosis forum.

You know, I, I. That the evidence tends to suggest. Um, and, you know, I keep referring to the evidence tends to suggest, and, and I will just kind of contextualize that a little bit. That’s not just a kind of lame vous expression. This is me, this is me leaning in on, you know, I, I, I published the first of meta analysis and, and and literature or systematic literature review to, um, to, to feature in a peer reviewed academic journal on, on clinical applications of self hypnosis, for example.

So, so when I’m kind of referring to the evidence, I’m talking about studies like that. Um, if any of your listeners want to want to tap me up and request a copy of that, uh, I’m permitted to do so. If they request it, uh, I can’t just go around giving it away. Um, cause it’s copyrighted to the, to the. Uh, sort of journal.

But, but so, so, so within, within that, the evidence tends to suggest therefore that, um, um, um, self-efficacy is a, is a kind of inherent byproduct. Um, or it’s inherent or a byproduct of the self hypnosis skills that that individual is developing. Um, which, which is a really lovely thing to do with anybody.

To, to, you know, the, the, even before we’ve kind of rolled our sleeves up and got into the therapy, they’re already feeling very capable and very, very able of doing a number of really cool things. And so say for example, I’m gonna teach somebody to. To use self hypnosis and actualize some hypnotic phenomena.

The kind of stuff that we do one-to-one with our clients all of the time. I’m sticking a pen to their hand or sticking their hand to their leg or their chair or something like that. You know, really useful life skills and um, um, um, you know, and, and you know, I explain this to them and, and this is coming back to your point about, you know, where, where we can also now start to conceptualize the problem in similar terms, the therapeutic problem in similar terms to the way in which we’re conceptualizing hypnosis.

So if they turn around and they say to me, Yeah, but Adam, you know, it, it’s quite difficult for me to imagine a pen is stuck to my arm because I know it’s not really. That makes a lot of sense for, for anybody to say that because I know it’s not really my, my, my first response is, well, that’s what the hypnotic mindset that I’m teaching you to do is about, you know, to create a little bit of self deception.

However, let’s just sidestep that for a moment and let’s discuss the actual problem itself. Let’s look at the process that you engage in with regards to that particular problem. Um, so say for example, the problem is, you know, this client has a phobia of dogs, for example. So they’re now walking through a field, they’re walking through a field or a park and 100 meters away, there’s somebody walking a dog that’s on a lead and, and it’s a chihuahua, you know, um, um, so, you know, sort of half, half actual dog, half mouse is being walked over in the corner of the field now for this person to be walking a hundred meters away, um, um, and, and now to suddenly start experiencing.

Fear, they, they’re doing the negative self hypnosis process. That is, they have invested belief, expectation, um, um, elements of non volition within the response. They’re kind of expecting a response to happen. They are imagining, you know, potential negative outcomes. They’re doing virtually everything that I’m asking them to do.

They’re investing belief, investing, expectation, engaging their imagination. Um, I’m, I’m. Creating a sense of non volition about it, which is exactly the same formula that I’m asking them to apply with regards to their self hypnosis. So when they say to me, Yeah, you know, it’s hard to imagine the pen being stuck to my hand.

I, I’ll say to them, But you know what? You’re already doing this so beautifully and automatically already the exact same formula is being done at the heart of the problem. So even though I’d rather kind of glibly and, and jokingly say, You know, you’re gonna be learning these kind of, these, these really useful life skills, like sticking a pen to your hand.

You know, I, I always imagine my clients getting home after that kind of orientation session with me and, and the husband or wife saying, you know, how’d you get on with the hypnotherapist dear? You know, you know, how you getting on with, with, with the hypnotherapist for your depression? He says, Ah, great.

Thanks. I learned how to stick a pen to my hand. And, and husband and wife just is thinking, you know what, what an earth have we invested in here? So, so, so, so, even though I joke about that and, and about the potential usefulness of it, the point is that that’s a massive thing to actually be able to do, first of all, in terms of the, the kind of byproduct of self-efficacy that I mentioned earlier, but also with regards to this notion of teaching one’s, the mechanisms, the process by how to create convincing change, how to, how to manage one’s reality, how to corral and control and be responsible for one’s own reality, which, which I really rather love.

Right. Right. And I love that perspective that, you know, we can look at that same model and there’s some who would make use of hypnotic phenomenon, but it’s that intention of making sure the client is aware that they’re the one making that happen. As my characterization is not to go into the, uh, I am the almighty hypnotist, and I command that arm not to bend.

No. It’s instead that, you know, here’s, you’re the one that’s making this happen. And if you can do this, You could also now fill in the blank of the change. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You know, I, um, um, I’m there and I think, um, one of the, you know, and, and this is, this is the reason that I’m, so, that I’m so, um, that, that I feel so strongly about a lot of the kind of received wisdom and that I lecture quite heavily on a lot of the received wisdom that is taught at diploma level.

You know, that, that, that the mind. You know, simplistically divided into a conscious and an unconscious. And, and that that, that, that’s how it works, for example, that that hypnosis is about trance and trance states, for example, which is very often walks hand in hand with this idea of, of a kind of almighty, benevolent force of some kind.

Whether that is an, an unconscious mind or, or a, or a therapist. Um, and developing that, that, those kinds of notions. Do you think it’s a, do sorry to jump in there, but do you think it’s an issue of needing, needing new words, new terminologies, or is it a matter of redefining the original terms? Cause it’s where I, I openly will talk about trance with my clients.

Yet I say this, the definition is actually very simple. It’s where internal focus carries more meaning than external reality. So your task is to sit there comfortably on an airplane, and that’s all you have to do. And that’s the external reality at the internal, uh, perception is that I’m terrified we’re all going to crash and die.

So even though you consciously know this one is not true, the internal trans state is something else, and to, to quote the popular line instead, this is a process of helping you to learn how you can trade that trans out for something more, more effective for you. Sure. Um, you know what, when you look at, I mean, if we just take, if we just take the word trance, for example, and the notion of trance, you know, um, when you are looking at definitions, um, Um, you know, kind of, um, it is typically is referring to mental states in which the person is unaware or apparently unaware of the environment.

And it’s very often characterized by loss of voluntary movement, a lack, lack of sensitivity to external stimuli. Some of, you know, some of which I, I think you’re potentially kind of alluding to there. Um, um, you know, I think however, that, that, that, that’s potentially, potentially a little bit misleading and I, I don’t think things need to be redefined.

You know, to come back to your original question, um, I don’t think things need to be redefined necessarily because there’s, there’s enough definition out there. There’s. Academic, you know, material and stuff out there. I just think we need to be more thorough in order that we arrive at our own definitions.

So, for example, you know, um, um, you know, you, you’ve obviously given this some thought and you’ve obviously got a lot of experience with this in order to, to feel qualified to make a decision that it’s okay for me to use the word trance. Now, I’m not saying that this is, that this ought to be outlawed.

What I’m saying is that people need to know both sides to this discussion and this debate that there is a lot, um, um, that there is a lot of rhetoric out there, um, um, that is anti the use of the word. So, for example, if you look at the work of Ksh and Lin 1995, for example, um, um, the American psychologist, a paper that was entitled, The Alter Altered State of Hypnosis Changes in Theoretical Landscape.

They actually, um, I, I mentioned a couple of studies in particular, 2002 studies that Steven Lynn. Looked at, um, that said that when participants were told that responding to hypnosis meant they had to enter a trance, they ended up being less suggestible than the participants who were just told that responding to hypnosis required them to be actively involved in the process.

So, so the, the only variables that were altered in the two groups in responding to hypnosis was that one was told they had to enter a trance and one was told that they just had to be actively involved in the process. So trance and the, um, the, the, the kind of unqualified notion of it led to, to lower suggestibility.

And I also think that sometimes the notion of trance, especially when used in ericsonian terms, tends to be a little bit obfuscating with regards to, with regards to, to, to hypnosis and what hypnosis actually is. And I think what the evidence suggests hypnosis is, you know, that it is something that is this kind.

Passive state that, that people go into and dive into like it’s aand or something, you know? Um, I’m, I’m, and, and I think that, and, and. And I think that, that, that also, it runs the risk of, of, of creating a lot of kind of false, false perception that, that, that, that, you know, mainstream media get a hold of and, and, and they like that.

They like a lot of that sort of, um, um, mystique and mystery. And I think that we need to, we need to, to, to shake that off if we are to become a, a mainstream or if we are just to be pulled in a little bit from the darkness of the fringes, because that’s where we’re at. We’re at the fringes. Right. And I think, you know, so, so I’m not suggesting there needs to be, um, um, that this stuff needs to be rewritten because you know what, It’s all out there already.

It’s all there. It’s just that the vast majority of the field. Do not know both sides. The vast majority of the field do not understand the, the, the more complex and just state versus non-state debates is this big debate about the theory of hypnosis that is, you know, sociocognitive versus dissociation theories, for example.

And, and that, that, that, that there are still echo echoes of that debate happening in modern neuroscience today where neuroscientists are creating some reproachment between the two and actually finding, you know, similarities. Some of my own research actually is contributing to that, to that discussion to suggest that in a similar way that Zoltan DNS cold control theory offers up a, a really interesting model.

Of, of, of modern day approaches to hypnosis, self hypnosis offers, um, um, a bit of reproachment between, um, between, you know, sociocognitive perspectives of hypnosis and, and dissociation perspectives of hypnosis. Um, um, which, which, which I find delightful. However, when I take that discussion and that debate to Cp d events, to conventions, to conferences, I get squinty looks.

Um, and, and, and I get people looking at me like, as if to say, You know, what the fuck are you talking about, Adam? You know, I no idea of this. Because they just don’t know. They’ve just been talked. This is what hypnosis is. Well, I think if we take a lot of these definitions, we take a lot of these concepts, You know, that’s just what it is when that’s really what it may be.

I flash back to, there’s an earlier, there’s an earlier episode of this podcast series with a friend of mine, Greg Paul Jaic, who is, uh, in a master’s level training of neuroscience. And he was even referencing the, the documentary, What the Bleep Do We Know? And he goes, Well, they’re, they’re right on a bunch of points.

Yet the thing that’s missing is that as, as he put it, we’re doing hypnotic suggestion as much as you. We need to always be under the phrasing of research now suggests that this may be the case as opposed to stating it as an absolute, that the moment we make that absolute statement that, okay, now that they’ve lost the numbers in the Dave Ment induction, they are now in sub nab.

Okay, well what the hell does that mean? Yeah, well do with that. Exactly. Exactly. And, and do you know what, you know, um, um, I have, you know, I encounter a lot of, um, um, um, a lot of resistance from people that, that as soon as you start to cite some evidence, or as soon as you know, you demonstrate that you’ve read some research, a lot of people get a little bit uppity about this, you know, um, um, and, and start to get a little bit defensive and, and say to me, Well, you know, this is, um, um, this is, this is, this is just academic, what you’re discussing here.

All I want, all I want to know is to be able to, to, to know what works. And, and you know, the, first of all, the science side of things is not about saying I am correct. It’s about saying that, that, that, given the evidence, um, the most responsible decision we can make currently is abc. Um, and, but that I will yield if something else comes along that supersedes that it’s never gonna be set in stone.

We’d be flexible all the time. And, and science is not just a kind of, you know, especially because we’re not talking about natural sciences here. We’re talking about psychological science, which is open to a huge amount of. Of interpretation and, and misinterpretation and it’s complex and there’s so many variables to encounter.

And even, you know, as far back as the 1930s Clark whole, when he was doing some of the, the very first ever, you know, research into hypnosis, uh, laboratory style with any kind of scientific principle recognized how utterly difficult and challenging it is to conduct effective scientific psychological research in the field of hypnosis.

It’s very challenging. So we we’re not saying that that one thing is correct. We’re saying that, that, that given the evidence and given the weight of evidence in a particular way, we, we, we can. We can start to make more responsible decisions, but the, you know, we’re not just digging our heels in, Like I said earlier, you know, we’re not dogmatically entrenching ourselves in one particular mood or thought.

Instead, we’re always gonna be open to something being superseded, and we will yield if, if, if something else comes along to change that. And we must do. We mustn’t just think, Look, I’ve invested some money. I’ve invested a substantial amount of money in my training. I really liked the tutor. I’ve really enjoyed my course, so therefore I must believe in everything that I was told.

Um, you know, a lot of people avoid having discussions with me about their, their creations, um, and about things that they’ve put out there into the marketplace because, um, I mean, one lady, for example, refuses to to have me on, on her podcast. You know, she mentioned it on one of her episodes and mentioned me on one of her episodes because she said, You know, Adam Eaton doesn’t believe in what I do.

And rather than avoiding the people that don’t believe in what you do, you ought to be engaging with those people precisely because of that, for that reason, and, and what you do ought to be able to bear up to some scrutiny. And if it doesn’t bear up to scrutiny, then you have a wonderful opportunity to make it better.

And, you know, so, um, I mentioned a recent publication, a recent paper that I had, um, published, um, in the Psychology, the, the, the American Psychological Association Journal, The Psychology of Consciousness. Um, Steven Lynn is the editor and the prolific hypnosis researcher, Steven Lynn, is the editor. And, um, I’m for those people that are not aware, you know, when you have peer review, it means that people on the peer review board, the editorial board, you know, major academics and major contributors to the field, review your paper before public.

And, you know, I, I, I, I submitted my paper, it’s part of my PhD, um, um, submitted my paper and, and this was my, my, my first foray into this field. And when it came back, the, the commentary, um, and because they purposely submitted to academics who have dissenting perspectives to yours or, or, or contrasting perspective to yours, you know, it needs to be robustly examined.

And, you know, I wanted to cry for a few days. I wanted to sit in, in, in, you know, a darkened bedroom and listen to my old teenage Smith’s LPs and just feel sorry for myself. And I was like, you know, how dare you criticize my life’s work and so on. But actually this is massively rev, you know, a massively um, um, effervescent process.

In fact, it’s so good for you to take that stuff on board. You know, they weren’t having a go at me personally, you know, they weren’t having a pop at me personally. Instead, they were looking at my work and what my contribution had had, and I needed to examine other things, and I needed to examine my own biases, and I needed to be objective.

And as a result, my paper became better. And, and, you know, so, so out there in the field of frontline hypnotherapy where there’s a lack of this kind of mentality where people refused to look at both sides of the debate and a discussion and treat their investment in a particular model, almost like it as a cult, and build walls around it and protect it from any dissenting perspectives, it, it festers and, and it, you know, it won’t develop as a result.

And instead to be open and let it bear up to some scrutiny. And it was where you have the chance for it to mature and become better. And also for it to be seen as it as it truly is. And I think there’s a so much willingness amongst the field of hypno therapists because very often the training has been inadequate to, to, to, to enjoy being spoon fed with techniques of people that are supposed to be, you know, prolific and supposed to be incredibly successful.

Um, you know, one of the things that, that I really respect about yourself, Jason, is how you’ve managed to commercialize your business so effectively. And, um, you know, I think you’re good. You’re good. You know, you represent what people can do commercially really well. Yet one of the things that I struggle with within the field of hypnotherapy is a lot of people teaching others how to be successful therapists when they haven’t actually been successful themselves.

It’s a, it’s a real fuck hard. You know, there’s a, there’s a, there’s a business conference and convention out there in the world currently, um, um, where, where lots of people are going and, and giving lots of advice to, to willing hypnotherapist about how to be effective in business. And, and I’ve been asked to go and speak at it and, and, and I struggled to go and to go and put, put my flag in the ground at an event of that kind.

Um, there was a guy based in the us, um, very well known hypnotherapist who, who, who was poorly, um, he was sick. Um, um, a little while. And, um, and was asking the hypnotherapy field for assistance with his medical bills. You know, could people help him and given him some financial assistance to pay his medical bills.

And yet, a year or so later, he was running workshops and giving advice to other people about how to run an effective hypnotherapy business. And I just struggle with that. And I think this is, this is, this is, you know, synonymous with this idea of people also. Um, I’m teaching certain methods and methodologies within the hypnotherapy field that perhaps are untried and untested.

Um, but, but are the individual’s own creation. And so, um, you know, I think. I think that that this notion of critical thinking that I’m talking about actually embraces creativity. It connects ideas and it’s very much about us thinking about both sides of the debate, about asking important questions, not being personal, not not resulting to logical fallacy, but asking really healthy questions that as a result, the field grows and develops and matures effectively with some objectivity and bears up to some scrutiny, and doesn’t just allow more and more fermentation of nonsense or of myth and misconception, even people.

Very well recognized and very well perceived within this field. Um, I tend to regurgitate a lot of myth and misconception, um, um, and, and don’t like having questions asked of it and get very defensive and, and use their charisma and their personality to, to talk, talk that stuff down and to to talk away the critique rather than being open to it.

Um, I realized that there’s one single point in there, but I’m hoping , but I’m hoping you know, and I realize I went around the house. No, I was letting you go cuz you uh, I was letting you just go on with that cuz you complimented me in there. So thank you for that. No, it’s worth no to look at that perspective that.

Again, it should be a what’s working now on the business side of things rather than, here’s a really cool idea that I have, and it’s the same dialogue within the hypnosis training side of things that it’s not, Here’s a really cool artistic process I just made up for the sake of filming a video of and selling online.

It’s instead, here’s something I’ve been using with clients for a number of years. And here test it out for yourself as well. I wanted to kind of pivot part of the conversation though that, uh, and I’d give you the disclaimer that you are not in the community that I’m, uh, referencing when I say this is that I see a lot of similar dialogue going on these days around here’s what needs to be fixed.

Here’s what needs to be fixed though, is we pivot to that concept of evidence based work. I, I just ask you for a simple, let’s go nuts and bolts on this. So what are those things that we do as hypnotist that we can now fit into that category of evidence-based work? That yes, there’s the research with, uh, self hypnosis, which I love that in terms of.

Getting that hypnotic foot in the door right away, that you can create this, you can create that different response. What other techniques, what other modalities fit into that, into that header for you? Well, I, I mean, within the field of, um, I mean, it’s, it’s very sparse pickings within the field of self hypnosis.

You know, I mean, I’m my own, my own systematic review. You know, we, we, we drew up, um, I’m looking at examining the databases of, of, of the literature. We drew up 546 studies on clinical self, self hypnosis applications. Um, but actually when we looked, uh, uh, uh, how many of those. Would, would make the final cut for the paper that I was publishing, um, um, of being fully randomized, fully controlled trials.

You know, there was 22, so, um, you know, that it, it was, it’s a lot easier to write about just 22 studies. However, the field of hetero hypnosis has, has much more, you know, substantially more, nothing like the field of cognitive behavioral therapy, for example, which, which even, even when it has its own ineptitude within it still stands up in, in health services, especially that here in the UK because of the, the j just the abundance of material that it’s got to support it as far as evidence is concerned.

So, as far as the field of hetero hypnosis is concerned, and you know, hypnotherapist that are listening today, I think there’s, there’s, there’s a number of things that we can draw upon. Um, if, if you, if, if you Google my name, um, um, Adam Eon empirical, uh, um, um, e t empirical, um, empirically supported treatment, um, um, you’ll find, um, um, you know, I’ve disseminated a couple of papers out there that, um, um, that show a lot of kind of key findings from the research, um, that that can be supported.

So, for example, I think one particular major. Major finding that there’s kind of got a, got a second wind, if you like, currently, um, especially here in Europe, is the fact that people don’t have to be zonked out to be hypnotized. So I’m, I’m, you know, hypnosis and relaxation are not correlated. You know, they’re not correlated, they’re not dependent upon each other.

Um, um, so one of my books for example, is hypnosis for running. Um, um, um, you know, I spent a number of years being an endurance athlete and ran 100 mile endur nonstop running events, um, using self hypnosis. And I was not physically relaxed during that time. You know, I was not able to lie down, pop on some whale music and throw a crochet blanket over myself, um, in order to do, to do self hypnosis, you know, um, I’m, I’m, you know, I had to be doing it on the go.

And so, you know, doing, and, and, and. This is great news for our anxiety clients, by the way. You know, because when someone has anxiety very often they, that they find it, you know, inherently difficult to relax. And if you then say to them, Okay, sit down and relax, you know, start relaxing your arms now. Start relaxing this, now, start relaxing this, that, that, they might think, well, well, well hang on.

I’ve got anxiety. One of the problems I’m problems I have. Is that I cannot relax and here you are asking me to relax in order to get better. Um, um, so it’s, it’s, it’s a real breath of fresh air to say to those people, You don’t have to relax at all. You just need to adopt this particular mindset. You know, hypnosis and relaxation are not correlated.

Um, this. You know, this notion that someone needs to be in a reclining chair, zonked out, dribbling down themselves, while, while the hypnotherapist kind of affects this hush fm DJ voice, you know, and starts doing, uh, deeper, uh, deeper kind of stuff that, that, that, you know, you run the risk of them wanting to kill themselves with too much of that kind of talk.

Um, I, you know, as far as I’m concerned, you, it can be upbeat, it can be alert. Um, Eva Bannet back in the seventies and then in the nineties did, um, um, did some really impressive research. Um, like I said, with Ernest Hill Garden, the seventies, and, and by herself in the nineties nineties that whereby they used stationary bicycles, um, and, and people were, were being hypnotized whilst.

Peddling bicycles, and they were still just as responsive to the people that were being zonked out. Um, and, and that were deeply profoundly relaxed. And, and it was shown that their metabolism was stoked. There was no way they could possibly be classed as being physically relaxed. Yet they were very, very responsive to hypnosis nonetheless.

So the two are not dependent upon each other, you know, hypnosis, you do not, it does not have to be conceptualized as being asleep like state. Really the only thing it has in common with sleep is that typically people have their eyes closed when they are doing it. Um, I would say that that’s, that, that’s, you know, one really important thing for a number of people to be aware of, for, for people also to be aware of, um, um, the research.

Any evidence that that, that, that kind of defies a lot of myths about it being an al alter state of consciousness. Um, which, which I think is that notion is not very portable. Um, so for example, you know that there’s some really good friends of mine that have been on your podcast quite recently that, that I disagree with vehemently.

Um, um, you know, um, um, James Brown’s a really good friend of mine, but I disagreed with, with most of the stuff that he said on your show here. Um, um, Freddy Jack Quinn is a really good friend of mine and I disagreed with a couple of the central tenants of what he was speaking about. This notion, everything is trance.

Everything is hypnosis, and that people live these as Wolinsky would say, you know, live these everyday TRAs. And then what we are doing is just kind of deepening that within the session. Um, um, you know, I. I don’t think that that what people refer to as everyday chances are actually what, what hetero hypnosis is.

It’s something very different. Well, do you think we can draw correlations as by way of metaphor to say, Well, it’s kind of like that the same way. I mean, I’d, I’d use the classic phrasing that, you know, not that it, not that it’s highway hypnosis, but the same way you’re driving somewhere and thinking about everything other than driving is similar to those moments where, you know, you’re reaching for that cigarette because that’s what you’ve always done.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it’s not necessarily say this is, but instead to say this is like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I get that. Which in many ways are, are aiming to sort of, uh, de uh, demonize a process. Yeah, yeah. Or just put it into terms that they can go. Okay. I can see how this is kind of like that, which.

On a similar note back to the point around, um, you know, you can make that pen stick to your hand, which you know it can’t yet. You accepted a series of suggestions by way of, um, I’m very open with the term of psychological influence cuz we’re always doing it on ourselves. So it’s, I think the issue is to say, again, back to like the, uh, what the bleep clip, the challenge is to say this is versus this is like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, I think, um, I think, I think what you’ve just said there makes a lot of sense. You know, certainly for myself, um, I, you know, I use a lot of cultural references. You know, I’m a big fan of sci-fi. I’m a big fan of, um, of, of certain sports and, and things like that, that, that I’ll draw upon certain references as, as what Michael Yco refers to as response sets, you know, As a means of seeding an idea before, before you’re then delivering it.

Um, I suppose some people might refer to that as priming. Some people might refer to that as just, um, um, you know, in, in more conventional psychotherapy this would be psychoeducation where you’re educating your clients about what’s going to happen and so on. And so, you know, providing an analogy or a metaphor, of course, I find that, or a universal, a universal metaphor, for example, um, makes a lot of sense.

I think. Um, I, I think one of the things, one of the issues I have with this idea of, you know, when you’re driving your, your, you, you are off with the fairies, this kind of ericsonian early learning set type of notion where, where people are encouraged almost to wander off and not be aware. Um, I, I think offers up a kind of, you know, certain lack of responsibility and offers up a little bit too much superficial, magical thinking.

I would much rather be rational and. and objective and have people learn to take responsibility for themselves. And when they do so nice. When they do. So what what that does is creates the byproduct of this thing that I’ve labored earlier on, in, in, in, in this, this discussion, um, about self-efficacy. You know, that self-efficacy when, when people, you know, if people have diminished responsibility in terms of, you know, you can just wander off and, and don’t worry because all these suggestions I’m giving you are going to your unconscious mind, for example, I think.

Mm-hmm. , I think, I think. That, that that doesn’t give them the opportunity to develop self-efficacy, to actually feel like I’m doing this for myself. I’m learning something for myself. I’m becoming better at it for myself. It makes them passive. It makes them passive. It makes them kind of sit there and expect a lightning bolt up the arse, which is just, you know, which, which sometimes will be effective.

And you know, I I, I can hear out in the ether now. I can hear future people, people of the future listening to this right now that are shouting at, at their recording devices that they’re listening to this saying, Yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but it, it, it’s been working for me, Adam. It’s working for.

Right. Yeah. But the thing is, the thing is, you know, it’s probably not working because of the reasons that you believe it to be. Yeah. I think that’s the thing. It’s not necessarily a throw it all out. It’s a, it’s a look at it consciously and critically to go, What else may be going on? What is it I can pull out of this?

And how is it I can now highlight those features and make myself even more effective? What are the actual mechanisms that are contributing to the change? Because a lot of the time it’s down to expectation, it’s down to placebo, it’s down to a lot of different mechanisms. Um, um, you know, a lot of those mechanisms exist.

You know, when you’ve got a good working alliance, when you’ve got a good degree of expectation, especially if somebody’s been recommended or referred to you by a, by another successful client, when they’ve invested themselves financially and they’ve invested their time in what you are doing, you know, those things.

You’ve not actually had to actually apply yourself in any way for any of those things. But that person now is, is, is primed for success. You know, with a really good therapeutic alliance between, between you and that client, the chance is, are you should be able to go up to the draw, pull out a wet fish, slap them across the head with it, , and, and, and if you, if you are believing in it enough.

It ought to work. Hang on. 10 seconds here. And I just registered wet fish hypnosis.com so we’re good. . Ok. Here, go on . Yeah. Yeah. I think you’ll find that wet fish, um, wet fish hypnosis do co.uk has already been bought. Um, Damn it, but yeah. Yeah. You know, so, um, um, but, but, but this is so, so therefore, you know, we, we ought to be recognizing, well, what is it?

And, and so lots of people, you know, I kind of alluded to this earlier on, and, and funnily enough, I’m just in the process of, I, I spoke about this at the UK Hypnosis Convention, this idea that, Yeah, yeah, but you know, as long as it works, Adam, why are you getting, why are you getting your nickers in a twist?

You know, as long as it works. But, but you know that, that, that mindset, as long as it works, mindset keeps. Absolutely in the dark ages because what’s what’s happening with this, this, as long as it works mentality, is that, um, um, you know, I mean the, the history of medicine is filled with treatments that have worked effectively for millions of people.

Um, from, from, you know, I mentioned at the UK Hypnosis Convention, in my lecture this year, I mentioned, um, a wonderful historical academic paper by a man called Feld, um, in 1964. And he was an early prolific author in the, on the placebo effect way back in the 1960s when it, when it was a relatively new topic, that field of research.

And he highlighted loads and loads of things that had been used historically that have been effective. Oh, yeah, Yeah. You know, like bloodletting, like leaches, like putri meat, like human sweat, frog sperm, and, and I make a big play on this. Crocodile d you know, crocodile D was used as a contraceptive, you know, Um, um, and, and, and I made this, you know, I made this joke that cro, you know, crocodile’s are laughing at us human beings, You know, they laugh because we’ve been using their d as a medical treatment , but it was used successfully by thousands of thousands of people.

And it worked. You know, I mean, who knows why, but it worked. Why don’t we continue using crocodile dunk today? You know, um, um, and, and that is the exact same. As long as it works attitude, you know, that there are reasons that we do not rely purely on client testimonials when deciding clinical treatments.

You know, it’s important. We don’t just continue to have a mindset of as long as it works, does it matter how or why? Adam, I’ve got success. I don’t need to know more than. It’s that kind of anti-intellectualism that, that’s really common in the hypnotherapy field, that that would have, you know, the crocodiles laughing at us for using their, they’re done for contraception trials and evidence tends to ensure that everybody gets precisely the same in a standardized fashion.

We get to inform and modernize our field and have more profound credibility. Um, you know, I, I, a really well known NLP trainer said to me, I’m a short while ago. You know, I use my computer each day. I dunno how it works. I use my brain each day. I don’t need to know how it works. I know NLP works. I don’t need to know how or why.

And that’s one of the reasons that NLP is not growing as a field beyond the cult-like status on the fringes of medicine. It’s not making a more of a profound impact because of that kind of lazy, anti-intellectual mindset. An Irving curse, for example, tested. The, the, um, tested the fast phobia cure. Okay?

Now I’m gonna ostracize myself to everybody, all of your listeners now, who, who, who, who, who used the, the fast phobia cure. But, but in, in, in laboratory setting, in a clinical setting, um, they could not replicate the results. And it’s very testable, the fast phobia cure. Yet there are NLP practitioners and trainers all around the world getting major results with, with regards to this.

And, and, you know, one of the arguments and one of the, the reasons that many academics believe, They get success out there in the world. It’s not because the of the technique itself, the technique itself, according to evidence, tends to be impotent, but it’s because the people using it believe in it so much.

Um, um, and, and you know, so, so, you know, I urge everybody listening, you know, don’t be one of those people who opts for that come comeback of, you know what, as long as it works, Adam, who cares? You know? Um, um, um, because, because I do care. I’ve spent my entire adult. In this field of hypnosis and hypnotherapy, dedicating myself to it.

And, and I’m desperate for it to be pulled out of the fringes that I’ve been referring to, um, um, instead, you know, And I wanna encourage people to be, be the people who actively move the field forward. You know, if you love the field of hypnotherapy as I do, um, you need to do more than just spreading the word about it.

We need to better understand it. We need to better develop it effectively. You know, the, the, as long as it works, attitude is the crocodile down attitude, you know? Well, I mean, it’s to look at, you know, what, again, what may be also going on. What are the moving pieces that are helping this to happen? Yeah. I really appreciated the talk, the work that you’ve done in terms of highlighting, Okay, so here’s what may be going on, even with placebo.

And for years I’ve been, you know, kind of privately using the term of going placebo on techniques that actually work. Yeah. . So looking at, look, looking at, you know, what are, what are the things that we can begin to model in an evidence based format? The things we know about dissociation, the things we know about, um, you know, uh, ramping up a state and bringing it down.

Fractionation, the things that we know about, even mindfulness based style trainings, yet, again, back to that reference earlier of, for the way that I can only describe it, is giving myself permission to get a little weird at one point, got a better result, but still at the core of it, inside of it. Is that ability, which was heightening just the imagination, the expectation of the process.

But at the core of it, you know, here’s a technique that I can look at. Here’s research around how it’s been effective. Uh, to look at something you hinted at earlier that again, it’s not just that relaxation based state, you know, it’s always to ask what is the emotion that’s going to be there? What is that physiological state that’s gonna be there in the result?

And that’s where I tend to do the work, which is kind of modeling in some sort of indirect way. All the work in terms of state based. That I want them at that excited place. Yeah. Because that’s where they’re supposed to be when they’re creating that change versus, uh, my professional language on this as, as they’ve turned a yogurt splattered in the chair.

Yeah. Though there is a moment that I did accidentally, uh, build up some static electricity in my body when I went to do a floppy arm drop in a Dave Alman induction. And this is the guy who, um, did quit smoking cuz he put it, there’s a moment where you just kind of jolted me and I just knew I was done at that point with the cigarette.

So there’s my lightning ball up the ass. Uh, hypnosis by the way. Yeah. Uh, . But you know, you know, one of the things, you know, excuse me, butting in there, but one of the things that’s really interesting that, that you mentioned there, Okay, so, so, so you have charisma, okay? You have charisma, Jason Ette, you know, you would not be able to, to beat at these lofty heights within, within the field that you are at with, if there were an absence of that.

You also have, have a big following. Um, um, you, you know, you have, you have a voice, um, that’s, that’s heard and so on. Now. So if, if, to paraphrase you, um, you know, and you had some success with, with, with, with this approach that you took with a particular quiet client where you had to get a little bit weird sometimes.

Okay? Um, um, um, and then so you decided, ah, this has worked here, this has worked here, this has worked on a couple of occasions for me. So therefore, I’m not gonna package this up. I’m gonna sell it to the masses. People will buy it because they, they believe in you and they trust you and so on. And, and people start adopting this idea where buy, um, the way forward with these particular set of issues is for me to get a little bit.

Um, I’m, um, for example, and, um, I’m, um, there is a proliferation of that within the hypnotherapy field. You know? Yes. People have found stuff that works for them. Now, I’m not saying it doesn’t work, I’m not saying that at all, But what I’m saying is the reasons it works for. Um, so for example, um, you know, the, the reason that the founder of that technique gets success with it might not be transferable to, to, to everybody else.

It may be because of the type of person they are, that it’s so effective. It may be that they’ve believed in it so much and it’s been so effective and, you know, it, it may not be working because of its standalone technique. And so, And even in the, even from the concept of the actual founder of it, the reason they think it’s working is different than the thing that’s actually absolutely work.

This is, you just described by the way, my entire strategy of how I chose the trainings I went to in 2018, by the way. Uh, which was that I was looking at who are people who are massively effective at what they do, or in the case of one seemed to be based on the stories they were telling. Let that one set for a moment.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m reading between what were the. Exactly, exactly the session that is now not there anymore, but to look at again, what, what elements may be going on, what’s that meta-analysis in terms of their entire style of work that is what’s getting them the result. That it’s not just it, it’s the, you know, Michael Elner looking at the practitioner transcending technique.

What are those things? What’s the environment that the change is being produced? Before we hit record, uh, I was talking about, you know, I’m on the hunt for a new office space as, um, uh, as I’ve ended my lease early due to some maintenance issues. And I, I was mentioning the story around one of these executive office suites type buildings, which there’s nothing wrong with yet.

As soon as I saw it was someone else’s environment. And it was someone else’s layout and it was an office with the furniture already in there. I’m going, this is not the way that I work with people. You know, mine was that they’re coming in, they’re coming into my space, they’re coming into my setup, which maybe my perceptions as to why I think I’m doing the work, someone else can unpack it and go, Yeah, but here’s also what’s going on it.

It’s to recognize that with all of this, there’s so many moving pieces. The same is, and I say this next statement, not to discount medical science in any way, um, but the phenomenon of regression to the mean, By the time I got the medication from the doctor, I might have already been on the other side of the bell curve and already on the mend.

And yet now I’m claiming, okay, this Zithromax that they gave me for my really bad cold, that’s what made me feel better. But I might have already been going there already at that point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, um, I would say that that, you know, a lot of, a lot of the popular techniques that are out there in the world would be, you know, um, um, would absolutely be, be more effective in the hands of, of, of different people.

And what, what we need to know is, is not just, not just the, the rhetoric of the person delivering it and let’s put it together and put their approach together. Um, um, we need to be able to examine it and, and examine it robustly and not, not just. You know, not just to pull it apart. Um, um, you know, that, that that’s not what I’m about.

Um, um, but to, to understand and to be able to move the feel forward and to think critically about what’s actually going on, um, with a lot of this stuff. And then you, so many people are just oblivious to this, to this whole way of thinking, you know? Um, I mean, there are, there are organizations out there in the hypnotherapy field that have the word medical and dental in them.

You know, I mean, I lecture for the Royal Society of Medicine here in the uk. Um, and that’s full blown. Full blown, you know, you’ve gotta be an oncologist or a surgeon or a doctor or, or something like that to be a member of that particular organization. Um, but there are hypnotherapy organizations out there referring to medical hypnosis whereby, you know, med, the medical hypnosis that they are talking about, there is no way it would stand up or, or, or, or be genuinely approved in a hospital setting or a perioperative setting or a dental setting.

You know, it’s kind of built upon foundations of sand and um, um, it’s really difficult. , um, y you know, the, the, the same, the same mindset that I’m talking about as applying as far as critical thinking already exists in lots of other fields out there. Um, so it, it already exists in the vast majority of medical fields and so on.

And so when, when, when we then, or a hypnotherapist then equipped with their 10 month training course, for example, suddenly starts, or, or, or seeks to develop relationships or, or to put the word out there with conventional medicine, conventional medicine will apply some scrutiny to what it is that that person is being.

Is, is suggesting, and it’s very hard to get over those boundaries that they put up. Uh, unless you know the right questions to ask, unless you know the right evidence to draw upon, unless you’ve got a, a much more robust education and an ability to think critically. Um, um, and that means that we’ve gotta, we’ve gotta subject ourselves to some scrutiny and not just be filled up with Dunning Kruger type delusion, you know, where we believe we are better than we are all of the time, and that we are a full blown panacea to the world instead.

We, you know what? We’ve gotta recognize our fa abilities, um, um, and, and do what we can to, to recognize the deficit within our knowledge, within our skills and, and, and to build upon that and develop it and be humble enough the way confronted with the medical fraternity. We’re able to recognize our own inconsistencies or our own weaknesses, but also then more, more credibly be able to promote our strengths.

Um, and, and you know, it, it’s really difficult. Um, it’s really difficult out there when there is such an absence of, of the critical thinking and of the, of, of the real kind of adherence. I’m not suggesting that people have to adhere to evidence based in terms of, you know, let’s all do, let’s all do standardized, standardized protocols all of the time.

Um, um, But, but that we are able to, to let the evidence inform what we do, you know, inform what we do. You know, I use lots of stuff that doesn’t have direct evidence to support it. Um, um, you know, it’s more likely to have evidence based principles that support it, but I use lots of stuff which doesn’t. Um, um, but, you know, the, the evidence is informing the vast majority of what I do.

And then, you know, I can add, I can layer on some, some. Artistic or creative elements of of, of myself and so on. Um, um, I know for example, James Brown talks a great deal in, in your, in one of your earlier episodes, um, about that he thought, you know, hypnosis is much more about being an artist. And, and I disagree.

I think there’s huge value in standardized protocols that have been robustly examined and that, that the artistry comes secondary and is layered on afterwards once you’ve taken a responsible decision afterwards. Because, you know, somebody like him who’s a performer, can afford to be artistic. Um, but somebody who’s earning their living as a full blown full time hypnotherapist, for example, doesn’t just wanna be winging it all of the time.

We wanna be making responsible decisions on, you know, for the best of, of our clients, and therefore we want to, to be making a responsible decision first, and then allow some artistry. Plus how do you teach artistry? You know, it’s, it’s kind of intangible. You can teach the standardized stuff, teach people then to be themselves and to be a good person.

That means well and has, you know, genuine good intent and, and let, let, let that, that kind of artistry happen in the way that’s right for them. What I love about that is it’s actually giving that next step that rather than just tear it down, it’s instead. I put it in the description of to work with intention, to work with purpose, to put meaning behind what we do.

Beyond just Well, it just works or, Yeah. Um, because that’s the training that I, I’ve come from and it’s from there. I mean, to use a simple example, and I, this is not referencing and it’s where I, I hear a lot of the tearing down of protocol and yet really we’re not a community anymore that’s pushing protocol as much as it used to.

That that’s kind of a dialogue that’s kind of fallen away around. You have to do this exact five step process, otherwise you’re not gonna get results. That’s kind of had its own renaissance away from that and the popularity of that style of work is falling away. But instead to look at, okay, so here’s at least a good, logical reason why we’re doing it in this order.

And we found this to be effective. And let’s just make up an example for the critical thinking here. Here’s an eight phase weight loss program and the fourth phase is now that the nutrition’s in order, Now we can move on to exercise, but here comes the artistry. And this is a client I’ve had several times over.

She’s the fitness instructor who is exercising five times a day because she’s running the class. Yeah, right. Do we, Do we have to enhance her exercise? No. Now we have a good, logical, evidence based reason cuz the evidence is already there. She’s actually doing the exercise, but instead, what else needs to be addressed and now we can artistically modify based on that individual and the interaction versus No, but my book says on the fourth session, we need to motivate exercise.

Yeah, no, we can, We can now make that in, We can make that logical, educated choice rather than just No, no, no. But the book. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Spot on. Spot on. You know, you, you’ve made the point, uh, you’ve made my point beautifully and put it in, in, in far easier to understand terms. Jason. Thank you. Thank you,

Yeah. Um, yeah, you know, I, I, I agree. I have nothing, you know, I have nothing more to add to, to what you said there. So, where can, uh, people learn about more of your work online? How can they find you? So, um, um, people wanna go learn about me. Um, um, you know, as far as hypnosis and hypnotherapy is concerned, I’m, I’m find my college, you know, I, I, I’m an all social media, um, so you can find me on my groups, on Facebook and Twitter and, and so on.

Um, but my college, um, the Anglo-European College of Therapeutic Hypnosis here in the uk, um, is AE College of hypnosis.uk. just.uk not, not dot code uk. Um, and, and, you know, even if you’re based, uh, a long way away, Uh, as, as Jason is while we are talking, um, we, you know, I, I, I have lots of online courses and online training.

Um, I really champion the hypnosis geek. You know, I, I champion the idea of of, of us becoming hypnosis geeks and, um, if you want to learn how to become a real, you know, High brow, cerebral based, uh, hypnosis geek. Um, then, then we’ve got loads of online programs and memberships, um, wherever you’re based in the world to be able to come and do that.

So, um, yeah, and there’s a five day free trial of our members area. Um, um, yeah, yeah. Excuse the plug. Oh, this is all about that . This is the time . Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, um, yeah, with, with, with my main members area, there’s a five day free trial where you can just come and have a look. You know, all my diploma courses, my advanced diploma courses, my cognitive behavioral courses, my sciences, self hypnosis, um, everything, loads of lectures, specialist lectures I give around the world at different conferences and conventions.

Um, all in there. There’s like, you know, several hundred hours of, of, you know, geek love to be had in. Nice. Nice. And this is not a hypnosis podcast that pretends other hypnosis podcasts don’t exist. So talk for a moment about hypnosis Weekly. Yeah. Well, you know, um, um, I have hypnosis weekly, you know, one of the things I, I’m guessing you find this as well.

Um, Jason, one of the things, um, it, it, it, I feel slightly torn. So, so I’ve just taken over the UK Hypnosis Convention, for example. Um, um, and, and one of the things that, that, that I’m looking to do is to bring. More academics in and, and, and, um, um, it’s not easy, but, but there’s gonna be some major university professors, some major, um, um, scientists from the field of hypnotherapy, um, and hypnosis lecturing at next year, at this year’s UK Hypnosis Convention.

And, um, so one of the things that, that is really, that I’ve found to be a really real struggle when I started my podcast was people bickering and fighting in forums. And I wanted to say, Hey, look, we can all be tolerant of each other, but, um, and so I gave, I give everybody a voice just like you do on, on your podcast.

You know, you don’t, you don’t enforce your own judgment, your own thoughts necessarily upon people. You, you, you shine a light upon them. And, and that’s what I, what I do and what I set out to do with my podcast, Hypnosis Weekly, which is just hypnosis hyphen weekly.com. And, um, so, you know, I have people on there.

We interview them, then we talk about a specialist subject, You know, Jason, yourself, you were on, um, um, an earlier edition of, of that, um, you know, a couple of years ago now. And, um, um, you know, I really like it. One of, one of the challenges I have as well though is that, you know, lots of the stuff that I’ve been complaining about today, hope people don’t think that I’m just a winder and a whir.

I’m very proactive with regards to, to looking to raise the game as far as this field is concerned as well. Um, you know, I don’t just whinge. Um, um, one of the, the challenges that I have is that some of the, the lack of critical thinking exists. With some of my guests, you know, um, and they say some things that, that I’m thinking to myself, Whoa, that’s nonsense.

Um, but, but I give them the voice and, and that’s where the kind of cognitive dissonance lies and where I feel kind of tugged. Because, because I, you know, I want people to have a voice. I want people to be able to discuss what they do. Um, but if I, you know, if, if, if I just interrogated them and attempted to, to go in hard on lots of what they said, um, um, no one would ever come.

No one would ever come back on the show. I’d never be able to entice anybody to come and speak on it. Although I share something that I’ve actually never talked about here on the podcast, that if you look back, um, there were a few episodes where I was being, I, I wouldn’t phrase it this way officially, but I’d phrase it as I was being polite and just letting the person talk early on.

Yeah. And there was one episode or two that I had had released. That I was listening to going, I don’t agree with that. I don’t believe that at all. I don’t think that’s the best way to work. And I think you’re basing that on out of date thinking. And I was kind of punishing myself for not actually engaging in a conversation.

Yeah. And that’s where I took about a one or two month hiatus from the program. And then it came back and that’s where it really found its footing as you know, this more long form conversation where, uh, sometimes we’re talking as much as each other, where sometimes it’s a real dialogue and it’s where there’s no.

Um, I, I say this after, I’ve now done about 25 podcast recordings, uh, in, in the launching of my book, coming out of, um, you know, there’s some programs I’ve been on that I can tell, okay. They have very much a formula. You know, they, they have, they sent me the questions in advance and I knew how to talk about myself in a way to help you know, their program, of course, and promote their service.

And also promote my, promote my book too, but recognizing that what we needed, You know, the real conversation as opposed to, you know, moments where, uh, I can agree with the guests or moments where the guests can very politely call me out on something. Yeah. And we can have that chat and like you mentioned, you know, we leave and these people are still our friends.

Yeah. That it’s not this, Oh, I’m never talking to this person again because they said something different than what I believe. Uh, I, I thirst for that moment of going, Tell me I’m wrong. Yeah. Uh, tell me that this, My favorite moment with a student was someone who took a class with me in like 2013. And, uh, I, I put the offer on to my students to say, You can always re-attend at no extra charge.

And he took it again in 2017 and he goes, Hey, it’s a very interesting, it’s a very different class. I’m going, Yeah. I figured this stuff out better now. Yeah, yeah. Come back again in four years and I’ll be, you know, have different opinions on things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Say I love that. So, so there’s, Yeah, you’re right.

There is that place of letting people have their voice. Yet it, it’s, again, where my own program had a bit of a renaissance of just saying, Let’s just have a conversation. Let’s just talk about this. Rather than just saying, Here’s your microphone. I’ll see you in an hour. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I’m, I’m one of the things that you said in, in, when, when I, when I spoke with you on my podcast, um, one of the things you said that was, that was a work of art was you, you discussed and, and.

Made a quote about learning from people who disagree with each other, which it turns out, by the way, we’ve all been credited, Michael crediting Michael Elner for that. And it turns out Michael Elner stole that from Scotts. Right. Uh, and these are all . Yeah. Yeah. So that’s really officially now a Scott Sandlin statement.

Right. But yeah, learning from people who disagree with each other, you mentioned that on the show. And I, I ended up writing, I ended up writing an article and, and it, it formed the basis of, of part of the keynote. Um, uh, the keynote presentation that I gave at the UK Hypnosis Convention back in 20 2016, which was about what we can learn from feuding, hypnotists, because there’ve been some very classic feuds throughout academic history, for example.

Um, um, and, and, and, Yeah. Yeah. You know, it was a really lovely thing. And, um, so, so, you know, I mentioned earlier there’s lots of people that, that I have massive friendships with, that I have great respect for, but that perhaps, you know, I, I don’t agree with wholeheartedly. And so, you know, rather than, rather than suddenly, Um, I, um, than changing anything massively on the podcast.

You know, I, I, I went and started just foaming at the mouth and frothing at the mouth about these things on my YouTube channel. So, so, you know, I I, I kind of go there and there’s just me, I don’t mention any names. I just talk about the things and talk about and look to, to kind of break down some myths and misconceptions and introduce the science, and that’s kind of where I wax a little bit more lyrical about what’s close to my heart.

Excellent. Adam, this has been fantastic. Ah, yeah, Yeah. Thank you so much, Jason. It’s been a real, real pleasure. Um, I, I, I love what you do and, um, and a massive success to you with your future projects. Some exciting stuff. I know you have coming up.

Hey, it’s Jason here once again, and as always, thank you so much for leaving your reviews online. Subscribing as well to Adam Eons Hypnosis Weekly podcast. And once again, head over to work smart business.com. Be a part of the Work Smart Business book launch. Also, as well, I mentioned it earlier, Hypnotic Workers.

Yes, I do work Smartt Hypnosis Live, which is the live training event. Yet workers is a bit more themed for those people who have already been trained in hypnosis. And perhaps you’re not quite getting the exact results that you want, and you’d like to learn systems to. Well systematize how you address your work and how to build that confidence, that creativity, and your flexibility in your process.

There are full change protocols, There are full client sessions demoed, and you could join hypnotic workers for as little as $47 a month. So check that out. Hypnotic workers.com. Grab the [email protected] and uh, keep hypnosis. Thanks. Thanks for listening to the Work Smart Hypnosis Podcast and work smart hypnosis.com.