Session #177: Felix Economakis on Hypnotic Responsibility

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This is the Work Smart Hypnosis Podcast, session number 177, Felix Economakis on hypnotic responsibility. Welcome to the Work Smart Hypnosis Podcast with Jason Lynette, your professional resource for hypnosis training and outstanding business six. Sets. Here’s your host, Jason Lynette. Hello and welcome back for an incredible session here with Felix Eco Mockus from over in the uk.

And the theme here is that of hypnotic responsibility. Now, chances are you may have heard of. Felix’s work, uh, a little while ago as he’s been, uh, achieving some outstanding press, some outstanding media for his work with Selective Eaters, and we’re gonna get onto the themes of the, uh, four steps of his specific protocol and really a mindset towards personal change, which quite honestly applies to practically anything else.

There. Um, this was a introduction that was made by former guests in the program, Howard Cooper. And actually, if you head over to the show notes for this session [email protected], you’ll be able to learn about an upcoming training that, uh, Felix is putting on as well as a product that’s coming your way.

To something that I’m gonna be jumping onto as soon as that’s available. You know, of all things, this is one of those categories that does pop up from time to time and you know, the category of the client who is a rather picky eater. The assumption would be that maybe this is just children, maybe this is just young people.

But I’ve had people ages, you know, 40, 50, 60 years old calling in, and even not from the perspective of a weight loss adjunct, just, Hey, this is something I’m getting tired of. This is much more work than it needs to be, and it’s about time I get over this thing. So once again, head over to the show [email protected] for links to Felix’s.

The upcoming training opportunities, as well as some interesting, uh, videos and news articles there as well. While you’re online, check out hypnotic workers.com. Hypnotic Workers is the all access pass to my hypnosis training library Techniques for change. You won’t. Find anywhere else, real client sessions that are fully detailed and transcribed, all designed to help you to build that unstoppable confidence as the new client is coming in, in terms of how you customize and help them achieve their goal.

Once again, check that out hypnotic workers.com and here we go. This is session number 177 Felix Econo Mockus on hypnotic responsibility.

Well, I actually started off training as a, as a counseling psychologist. And, uh, along the way I came across the work with Milton Erickson, but from a strategic systemic point of view. So he all, all the sort of, um, things you do for clients using kind of paradoxical therapy. So as I, I was very intrigued by this.

He was very clever. And as I read, uh, books by Jay Haley about Milton Erickson, you can talk about hypno. Um, Ericsson did hypnosis on this client did hypno myself. Well, you know, I really admire Ericsson want to know of him. And if it’s good enough for Ericsson, it’s surely good enough for. So, um, I looked into hypnosis training.

Uh, I started off doing a training with this, uh, university, which is, I had to leave actually was so dar and boring . I talk about making a fascinating subject dull. I had to leave it and start somewhere else over the. So have to ask what was, what was it about it that made it doll, What was it about it that made it not as effective for you?

Well, um, there was just too much talk and, you know, we’re given just, just three inches of paper to get through, you know, studies and research and going through the, the, the Stanford scale of this and that. I just thought, where’s the demo of hypnosis and things like this and, uh, you know, tell me more about the stuff on and out.

I don’t wanna know every, every paper published about it. I, I kind of wanna see in action. I wanna. You know, I understand. I wanna explained in a, in a non, I mean, I kept looking at my watch every two seconds that says something. Yeah. Thinking, Oh my God, this date goes on forever. So, um, and I then went to another institute, which was far, far better.

Uh, but even that looking back was very limited compared to what we can do now and what we know about hypnosis now. So, um, there’s been a real evolution, I think, for myself and as I, you know, see of other things, uh, and my, my colleagues as well, developing new approaches. So, um, and now I’ve actually come to the point where hypnosis is an option.

I say to people, uh, those who are naturally prone to be hypnotized, if it’s your go to default state, fine, I explain that. But if you’re not interested in being hypnotized, your system’s not ready, that’s fine too. Cause change can happen in any case regard. Though, I’d imagine on some level you may be doing things that let’s call out as being hypnotic in nature.

They’re not necessarily formalized hypnosis. Well, that is also true, . Yeah, that true. But in terms of formal, at the end, close your eyes. I mean, I’m influencing and leading and persuading throughout the session, but the client has this idea that only the last 15 minutes we’re gonna do the change. And if they’re scared, they have their eyes open, that that’s fine because they’re already, we’ve already ticked the boxes by this point.

They’re already sold on change. So it, it’s more of a formality. It’s for them to know, Oh, we’ve done a change bit now. Um, it’s also for me to ask for a formal change from the system as well. But it’s, it’s, it’s, uh, it’s, it’s accumulation of things leading up to that point. Yeah. So that initial training that I’m sure now this story leads to getting, uh, education elsewhere, a little bit more hands on, a little bit more demonstration.

Um, what was. What was that kind of spark in terms of getting this up in motion? Actually, let me rewind backwards. What was that career path before that, if, if there was one? Well, there, there was one. I was a mature student. I, uh, I, I did a degree, then I took a year off. I didn’t really know what I wanted to do.

Uh, it was the middle of the great depression back then. in the 19 eight. Um, and so I, I, I, I, I took a job in retail and very quickly I, I became a, a manager and then a, um, a manager of three stores. But, um, that was actually very useful because I found selling, um, was a very important skill, which I then applied in psychology, you know, and, and I said my training, essentially I’m selling change to, to a client.

And when you sell to, to a client in retail, you’ve gotta know your customer. You’ve gotta know their needs. You’ve gotta anticipate their, um, concerns and objections. And overcome, not in a trying to fool them way, I actually want my client to get the best product, but they might not be aware why paying more for a better product is actually better value down the line.

Um, and I, I genuinely believe that, you know, I wouldn’t sell them something just because I, you know, I wasn’t on commission or anything. I genuinely believed if I were in your shoes, I would go for this product and I actually had a lot of success as a salesman because I think I was genuine and I was anticipating the customer’s needs and trying to meet them, and I think that came across.

So that was actually a really good skill to apply to therapy later on. Well, I’d say it’s a theme that pops up here. Pretty frequently of, you know, eventually when we find ourselves learning hypnosis, the, the mindset that, Oh, I’ve already been doing this, but now I, now I can do it on purpose. Now I can do it with better intention.

Yeah. And so I, I think in a way, one thing, there’s, there’s a lot of things going on with, with my protocol, but one thing I wanna make clear is everyone’s very, Overly eager to jump on the content side of things. You know, what’s the induction, you know, what’s the, what’s the new induction? The new technique.

And it’s not so much what you do is also how you do it. Um, I remember once, cuz I’m Greek, I live in England and I, you know, worked in Europe. If you are, um, I I also, for a year, I was a, I was a contracts negotiator for, for a, for for, for a travel, um, company. So I was going to hotels and, uh, and managing contracts and things.

Um, if you work in Spain or Italy, first, the appointments are in the evening. You won’t even talk about business for an hour. You know, you’ll, you, you’ll talk, build a rapport, you’ll talk about football, you talk about, you know, children, you talk about this and that. It’s just bad manners to, to just, you know, talk about business and eventually you start talking here or.

It’s how it’s done. You’ve gotta, you’ve gotta know how it’s worked, but you have an American client, for instance, and within a minute let’s, you know, cut the chase, let’s get the bottom line. You know, I guess there’s, there’s, there’s time for that as well. So you’ve gotta figure out if, if you have an American negotiate going in and say, Come on, let, let’s just mean and cut the Chase book.

Can you, you’re kind of. You haven’t really won them over, you know? Um, and also if by, but conversed, if you go to America and someone you know is busy and they, they want to talk about stuff and you’re talking about, you know, your family and football and stuff, they’re like, Come on, I’m busy. You know, you’ll lose them.

So it, it’s, it’s also about how you approach the deal and, uh, h how do you, where’s your client coming from? What do you need to do to win them over? Um, and that applies in sales and, and dating and, um, therapy and pretty much everything. Um, I, I don’t like the NLP way of, you know, tricking people speed seduction and, you know, just using it unethical ways.

I, I generally mean empathy. Understand your client and their needs and if they’re happy, you are happy. You know, that’s the way I’m approaching it. I, I wanna win-win situation. Something you’ve highlighted there that I really like, which, That people often, if they hear this theme, they would think it’s kind of cold or just kind of, uh, you know, not what we’d like to call client centered.

Yet, within any category, we can start to look for trends. We can look for assumptions, like I know working with picky eaters is one of your specialties. Mm-hmm. and going into that, while as much as you are customizing to the individual and responding to their specific needs, you’re often going in, I’m sure with some, let’s call it safe assumptions and patterns that you’ve learned how to recognize over time.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, to be honest with you, I’ve shaved over an hour and a half from when I first started. Mm-hmm. , um, and, and, and this, because I. I’m quite fortunate that I’m quite busy, so I, uh, I have to refine and, and cut things down, or I just don’t have the energy or the time to see these people. So initially, you know, like a lot of people, when I first started out, I threw the kitchen sink at it.

I overprepared. Yep. I put everything and I was exhausted. You know, if I did a two and a half hour session, I needed a break for two hours, you know, , it was so mentally taxing. And initially what I’d do is I, I would ask clients and I’d wait for them to respond, and after a while they all started saying the same things.

So instead of waiting for them, I started leaving them. I’d say, Yes. What would you say? For instance, most people would say this and they’d nod their head. I’d think, Okay, that saved me a little bit of time. And then I found, well, you know what? If I know what they’re gonna say, by and large, I can lead them and check if that’s okay.

And most of the time it is, and then I can sort of make it quicker. . So I’m leading client. I, I kind of anticipate that their response is quicker than they do, because as you said, you see patterns. So that can make things very quick. And at the same time people think, Wow, this guy really knows me. You know, and that builds credibility.

It’s like he really knows where I’m coming from. This is something that comes up in testimonials a lot. You know, Felix really understands this, or, you know, it, it’s, you know, this kind of idea and. That helps rapport, and this is hugely important, Jason, this idea that if a person trusts you, and yeah, I trust you, I’m in your hands, you can lead them anywhere.

Something quite challenging, and they’ll still go with it. You know, this is good commanders in war, you know, you’ve gotta lead your soldiers to, to war, potentially kill, killing them. But they say, you know, we trust our commander. Um, you know, um, you’re getting them to, to do something against the basic instincts.

Well, there’s something you’ve highlighted there that. You know, I’d often teach how to guide people through a sales process of a new client on the phone. And it’s not for the sake of, uh, you know, doing this for just the influence or the manipulation side of things, but it’s just simply to point out this is how we demonstrate that expertise that they’re calling for any specific issue.

And if there’s a way to, during that conversation, highlight that you’ve thought about this issue in a way that they haven’t yet thought about the issue. So, you know, public speaking is the issue leading up to the presentation, and then you’re fine. Is it the shakiness during the presentation? Is it the anticipation that it’s about time to get up and speak?

Or is it that huge rush of adrenaline after you’ve gotten up to give that presentation? You know, the same way we can. How many cigarettes are just kind of automatic in nature versus a conscious choice, which is driving them inside to find these answers. But accidentally, uh, politely it’s pointing out, Oh wow, this person has a level of expertise to this that I haven’t yet thought of.

And really at that point, they officially become your client and my experience. And, and they trust you. And that’s hugely important. They don’t particularly have to like you or anything, but they kind of think, you know, this guy knows what he’s talking about and I’m, I’m in good hands. And I think once that box box is ticked, that’s half the work done in a way.

Mm-hmm. . Um, because, you know, good skills of empathy are important here. Putting yourself in the client’s shoes and anticipating. You know, I’ve seen a lot of people and I’m, I’m another suit to them. Oh, I don’t really wear suits, but they’ve seen psychologists, psychiatrists, , you know, more informal. They’ve seen a lot of people, and you see them come in deflated and thinking, Here we go again.

He’s gonna lecture me on why this is silly. You know, like the food focused stuff and what I should do and I don’t, I do something different. And so you, you sort of see their interest, you know, picking up a little bit. That’s not how I thought the session would go. And I explain the problem and they go, Yes, that’s exactly why I’m doing this.

And they sort of turn their parents or their partners start nodding and almost saying like, You see, you know, this is what I was saying. And son, I’m their hero because I’ve able to mind read and, and anticipate where they’re coming from and explain it the way that they couldn’t. And, and this is funny.

The client, you know, is, is mine, is probably my hand. So that, that’s the kind of idea and that’s a. Huge skill that too many people too eager to rush in and, you know, do a long hypnosis or a fancy induction. And the real skill is winning them over in that way. Um, and, and then going through a set, each of the objections of a part of the mind.

So upon mine goes, Okay, um, okay, you know your stuff, but you know, I’m a really hard client. What if this doesn’t work? Or what if this or what if that? And again, Jason, we know the patterns. You know, it’s not the first time I’ve answered this question. I lead them through calmly, through a set of replies until basically they have no, no objection.

Go. Fair enough. You know, I’ve run out of objections. Um, so are we ready to, to make the change? Have I have a covered everything? Is there anything else? No. Well, let’s do it then. So, um, it’s just like selling something in a way. So, um, that, that’s, that’s where, where it really came from, this idea, and it’s fun to do because I enjoyed selling things to people.

Um, I, I, I like a happy customer. I enjoy people, um, having a need that I help clarify them meeting that need. And then going away feeling really good about it. You know, that’s, that’s why I’m enthusiastic about this job and I Sure you are from the way you’re speaking as well, um, that sense of being of assistance to people, uh, is what drives this in a way.

Um, and once that’s in place, then it’s leading them to, okay, now we’ve got that, let’s make the change happen. Um, and, and, you know, to answer earlier question is sort of where to get into this. Um, among my colleagues, a lot of my colleagues have started training people and their approach. And, um, a couple of ’em said, You know, what about yours?

Or Do, do you want to do a workshop with me? And I always thought, Well, you know, I don’t know. Um, this is my baby. You know, I’ve developed for a while. It makes me special, you know, you know this and suddenly everyone’s doing it. I’m not really special. Um, but then I kind of thought, You know, as, as, as Bob said to me, Bob Burnson, I think, you know, he said other people are teaching the swan, but, you know, most people still come to me.

I’m still the main person for it, and I think that’s, that’s probably true. You know, people are still, hopefully gonna come to me and, I mean, abandoning droves and against the other people. Well, I’d say from the, from the trainer perspective, we fall into that pattern. You know, from, this is at least my phrasing on it, that in a class and a workshop or video project, it’s my job to give you at times the insane level of thinking and detail behind what I do.

And it’s completely safe to do that. And there’s no arrogance behind this next phrase that you can’t do it the way that I do it because you shouldn’t. It should be your own style, your own approach. That we can still have the map, the the moving pieces of the procedure. Yet it’s how to the individual and then again from the individual to that client in front of them.

That’s where it’s always still a different experience, even if it may be, let’s call it protocol at that point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that, that’s what really convinced me. Like people can do the format, but the real skill and wisdom and experience comes from being able to handle when he doesn’t go according to plan what you say instead, when they throw a curve ball.

Um, and, and, you know, I’ve answered everything. I don’t think there’s any new questions for, for a few years now, , um, I, I’ve got a, I’ve gotta reply for everything. Yeah. So that’s, that’s the extra thing that I think, you know, marks out the, the trainer or the originator from anyone who just knows the words.

Yeah. So walk me, walk me through someone’s in front of you now, and what is kind of that, that user experience, what is it that they can expect to go through as they’re now working with you? Okay. As a, as a client? Yeah. Yes. Rather than a trainee. So the first thing a person comes in, they’re probably apprehensive.

Um, you know, often people said in sleep last night because they’re gonna face their phobia and they’re wondering will it work? You know, Cause it’s a lot of money for them. And the first thing is, let’s diffuse all those things. So, uh, once they come in, I, I, uh, ask a couple of questions. You know, do you find you okay?

And then, you know, and answer some things. And then I say, Okay, I, I outline what we’re gonna do. Um, we’re gonna do three things today. They’re all very easy. I guide you through each one. And it also, sorry, it is me talking a lot today. A lot of people are relieved cuz they actually hate talking, but talked out with a lot of therapy.

So that’s quite nice. Especially for teenagers. Especially boys. Um, I’m gonna do most of the talking. Um, and then, then I mentioned, you know, this is a very simple process. Uh, we’re just gonna tick some boxes here. There’s no pressure. Let’s see how many boxes we tick. And I sort of, my main name is to normalize, to validate, to take the pressure out.

This idea that it’s gotta work today. I convert it away from a pass of fail into, this is a process. It’s about ticking boxes. It, it’s about reframing things. So things, you know, the, the message I hammer in, this is simple. You can do it. Other people have done it younger than you, so you can do it. Um, your system understands it.

I know what I’m doing. These are the messages I’m hammering in until a person feels like, okay. You know, that’s, that’s reassured me quite a lot. That’s, that’s fascinating. I’m curious if you can get a little bit more specific around how it is that you address that, Uh, uh, the phrasing that it doesn’t necessarily have to work today, but it will eventually work.

Okay. So, I mean, o one of the things I might say when a post comes in is, You know, it’s converting it from a pass of fail. So say, okay. Um, today we’re gonna, I, I, I talk about changing perceptions around food or spiders or cats or whatever. Now, perception doesn’t sound like hard work, and I give examples of how we change perceptions and other areas of our lives.

So this is easy. You’ve done it already, so already there’s a bit of Okay. You know? Yeah. That seems simple. What else? And we’re just gonna tick boxes, you know, If we took a hundred percent today, great. Makes me look good. But if we take 70%, we could do half an hour on Skype. It’s generally one session.

Let’s just see how well we do. Does that sound good to you? You know, so already it’s this sense of, okay, you know, no pressure. Let’s just see how we do. Because it, it’s all a learning curve and I want to convert it into that learning curve at all time. You know, it’s failure cuz people get hung up about, you know, um, it, it’s feedback.

I mean, sorry, people get hung up about failure. You know, am I doing it right? What does that mean? You know, if you’re playing a guitar the first session you say, Am I doing it right? You think, well, you’re doing something’s right, you’re doing some other things you need to learn, but you know, it’s a work in.

What I love about what you just said there, just to kind of jump in, is that people would often put that perception on hypnosis as being this unique little thing that, you know, and they’d label it as resistance to hypnosis. And I love the metaphor of learning guitar, that if we’re learning anything new, Anything, we’re gonna be in the mindset of, am I doing this right?

I mean, um, you know, I’m flying back from a convention the other day and here’s a person clearly going through the whole, uh, pre-check security system for the first time and watching them going, Wait, do I take off my shoes? Do I leave my belt on that? With anything, there’s gonna be that filter. So it’s. We as the practitioner who can preframe and turn that into an advantage rather than a weakness.

Uh, rather than label it as this is a problem. Yeah, yeah. Because remember, you know, from the clients, they’re coming in very anxious and thinking basically, Will this work for me? Am I doing it right? You know, they get, they give themselves performance anxiety, and you are reframing and saying, Well, it’s easy.

Other people have done it and there’s no getting it right. There’s just this. So follow the instructions, see how well we do, and it. It’s again that diffusing thing. So already the thing they’re getting away from that model into the, let’s see what happens. And you know, I explain other things I say, when you learn to swim, you didn’t wait.

You know, you didn’t learn to swim, then you went in the swimming pool. You went in the swimming pool, you had no guarantees. You learned to swim. You just assumed you’d learn. Cause everyone else is doing it. And as you did it more, you got more confident along the way, right? So it’s a learning curve. So I don’t understand why everyone’s suddenly makes this, I’ve gotta pass or fail.

When, when riding a bike or swimming or driving a car, you intuitively understood that you’re learning and getting better as you do it, right? So you’re always putting it back into a learning curve as a process, because people think, not in processes, but in terms of, you know, normalizations like pass or fail.

Um, it’s black and white thinking. When we get emotional, we get scared. We gotta convert it back into process at all. . So I do some stuff around that and then I say, Just before we get into therapy, let’s spend five minutes talking about what’s going on here. And then I, I, I use psychoeducation, I reframe it.

And this is, builds a lot of rapport. Cause people going, I never understood it that way before. And this is again, when people start nodding to their husbands or wives or whatever, I’m going, Yeah, that’s why I’m doing it. You see. And it’s really nice for parents to be present. Cause you know, parents will say to me, Oh, he’s just very difficult.

I ask him to eat food, just lick it. And he. I’m saying, Well, you don’t really understand, You know, why you think as I explain it to a person, um, you know, one of the things I say to person is I, I do my during par. Say, by the time you’re eight or nine, you know, food and people ask you to eat food by now, your brain’s feeling a little bit like if someone asked me to eat gravel, you know, so Felix hears some gravel.

You know it’s great for fiber. Go ahead, take a bite. I think they’re crazy. I think, you know, what are you talking about? You know it’s not food, it’s gravel. I would just lick it. If you don’t like it, you can spit it out. So I don’t even wanna lick it cause it’s not food. And you see people laughing and shaking their heads and going yes.

That’s exactly what I feel, and now I’m the hero. So it depends on the analogies and metaphors you use and you explain it. When parents start thinking, Oh my gosh, I’ve been really harsh. Johnny wasn’t doing this to be difficult. He was actually petrified of this heo phobia. He was trying to avoid it and.

You know, you realize that the parents have got it wrong. They’re not picky. They’re not fussy that the phobic around this thing, you have a version. So, um, already I’m an advocate for them. So that’s another thing that takes a box for, you know, credibility and rapport and trusting me. And once I’ve got, that takes about 10 minutes to do all this, uh, we move on into the next stage, which I do kind of parts therapy Now.

There’s parts therapy in parts therapy. I mean, the one I do, I’ve, I’ve trained in different models. This is a very quick version that does all the things very quickly. Um, because it’s been refined over the years, uh, I wanna get a part on board and I’ve developed a way of speaking in parts therapy that speaks directly to the part.

And, you know, there’s a lot of scope for creativity in this. You can have these kind of conversations and debates with the part while the person’s listening and I sort of speak on his behalf and on his behalf sometimes. So it is, it’s quite a lot of fun, you know. . Um, so I’m wondering if you an example, so, um, you know, this is, this is something, um, uh, let, let’s see.

You know, I’m saying from your point of view, how do you feel about this part? You probably feel fed up or frustrated, You know, I’m leading again or angry. Yes. And, and now this part, if I task this part, what are you trying to do for John? I think this part would say, Well, I’m just trying to protect him.

Right. Um, because, you know, when he was two years old, this happened and I, and I go along this way and I’m having this kind of conversations. If. You know, couples therapy, but I’m speak on behalf of a part and, um, you know, people find it really interesting. It’s very engaging because people like conversations, you know, that they used to, um, you know, um, it, it’s what they like rather than, than abstract kind of cerebral concepts.

They like to hear conversations, uh, in, in action. So I’m having these conversations with a part and answering for it and anticipating things. So, um, I, I, I, I do a bit of parts therapy and then, uh, the next step. By the way, so far I’ve done the four R I’ve done rapport and parts therapies are kind of reconciliation.

Because I want people to reconcile so they work together. The next stage is responsibility, uh, for change. So I, I do a kind of variation of a Dickens approach. Um, again, it’s how, it’s, how it’s done as well to to get a partner side and get it to realize, um, why change is better than not changing. And, um, Uh, along the, I mean, there’s a long, and I can spend an hour on each.

So, and then toward, once we’ve done all that, towards the end, the rewiring is the hypnosis bit, and I actually had to choose between, do I call it rewiring or rehearsing or replacing or what, but eventually settled for rewiring. And this is where we, we ask the system to make a formal change. And you know, this is a model, Jason, that I’m, it’s the fame has come from, you know, dramatic changes in food stuff.

But I do it for everything, to be honest with you. Yeah. Um, theme that’s not so dramatic. After one session people say, I feel great, I’m gonna ask out model. Um, it kind of, it’s incremental, but the food stuff is very dramatic cuz you know, you cannot even go near something then you’re reading. Uh, shows you that it change has taken place.

What I love about that is, especially, and correct me, was the, the third step, I don’t believe it was relearning. What is it that you called it? Um, so rapport, reconciliation, responsibility, there we go. And rework. Yeah. What’s great about that is that so often. , you know, we, we would have the expectation that I’m gonna get someone at hypnosis, I’m gonna do the change, and let’s just use the category of parts therapy as you brought that up.

And then, uh, you know, to quote some of the older techs in the field to sit back and watch the miracle unfold, Uh, that that category of responsibility is gonna be a factor and practically everything, that there still has to be some sort of action step. I would, I would often oversimplify the entire profession that every hypnotic suggestion.

Is a simple formula. It’s an action followed by a result. So they still have to go out and do something. The fear of flying client still has to book the ticket to actually get on the plane. The phobic eater has to actually take that opportunity to do the actual action of eating the new thing. Uh, and I think that is brilliant, uh, for the reason that it’s one of those.

Aspects that we have to get the conscious mind on board as much as the subconscious mind. Yes, absolutely. I mean, the key to all change is actually taking personal responsibility. Now, the reason why the world is a mess, we’re just not taking responsibility for the consequences of our actions. So where the cl, even if it’s a child, the reason this works is the best kind of changes.

And all the while I’m using phrases, analogies to say, you know, it’s up to you to change. I’ve shown you how, um, it’ll do. And if the party wants to do it, then change will follow. It’s never, I will really deeply hypnotize you say magic words and change will magically follow All the while it’s make the client responsible, but it, it kind of makes them grow up a bit because they are expecting magic words sometimes and all the while I’m saying where it doesn’t work that way and I, you know, this is where education comes into.

I say, listen, if I work with an overweight person, I know where person desperately wants to be slimmer. Yeah. Their fed up by being fed up is not. They’ll complain and blame, but they won’t necessarily change their food choices the next they need. They need to know what they need to do instead. That will actually work.

But crucially, they need to take responsibility for that. You know, they can pave to go to the gym, but they need to actually turn up the gym. Yeah. Or do whatever exercise. So it’s still up to you. I’m gonna take or help you to get rid of the blocks in the way, but you still gotta. You know, there’s no way around that.

You know, Um, if there’s a debilitating block in the way that’s stopping you, like, I’m really embarrassed by turn up in the gym, I can help you with that. But you still gotta go to the gym. You know, your personal trainer won’t do your exercises for you. Mm-hmm. , you’ve gotta do them. And if you say, Oh, well I don’t wanna do chin-ups or press-ups.

What do you wanna do? I wanna sit home and watch tv. Well, you won’t gonna change. Yeah. So we gotta, we gotta explain. This is how change happens. When you went the swim before, you didn’t magically learn to swim. You, you did the exercise, you got more confident, but you are in the swimming pool learning, and that’s what we’re doing here.

So it’s a more grown up and mature and sober approach because, A lot of people are buying into super deep hypnosis, and I’ll change you magically and you’ll, you know, be like a zombie. And that’s setting people up for a lot of failure because people go, Well, you know, I don’t really feel like this. It’s still hard work.

I still gotta apply myself. And I say, Well, yeah. Um, that’s life. So it’s, it’s, it’s teaching clients, um, how problems are solved and using analogies in other areas of their life, you know, Um, if it’s a child, it’s swimming, riding a bike. If it’s an adult driving car or doing something, you, you teach them the steps that were needed in that, and you say, Well, these exact same steps apply here.

Uh, we, we’ve gotta stop looking for this shortcut because the ones who are looking for a shortcut don’t do well. The ones who are prepared to doing the work will always do well because it’s more about psychoeducation understanding and mentoring and teaching. Um, rather than that, the hypnosis, you know, so people come in looking for a magic fix and I say, Well, what I’m really gonna do is I’m gonna explain things.

I’m show you how to do, gonna get rid of the blocks in the way, but then you’ve gotta do it. Um, and that’s why change, um, it’s successful because the, the, these are the elements of change work. You know, for any change to happen, this has to be in place. So, You’re teaching people and that’s why, um, the hypnosis bit at then or whatever other change bit, um, I’m supremely confident about because all throughout the session I’ve said, you know, your system nurse had to change.

And if based on what we studied it wants to, then it won’t. If it doesn’t, then I guess it won’t. Um, now it’s up to it. So it’s putting it always in the client’s hands so you can have your eyes open yet, can get your eyes closed. Um, if the system’s gonna change, it will, Let’s see what it does. Um, there’s never a point of, I will do this stuff to you now and you will automatically change.

And how soon? Yeah. How soon into that initial inquiry is that dialogue popping up for you? Um, it, it’s, it’s in the whole, so a session, if, if I do the long form, takes about an hour with a child, I’ll cut that in half. So throughout it, It’s interwoven with, with certain messages. Some of them I mentioned.

This is easy. This is simple you’ve done in other of your life, but the next thing is, um, it’s up to you and it’s up. That part. If that part has any questions, let me know and if it’s okay now it’ll do it. Does it have anything else? And sometimes I say, you still need to reassure a part of you, just like you did when you learned to swim.

Part of you is afraid and you thought, Well, come on. Everyone else is doing it. I’m sure we’ll do it. You’re still gonna do that with a part of you. It’s looking to you for reassurance and leadership. Um, and I know you’re only 10 or 11 years old, but. You’ve done it when you learn basketball or skateboarding, whatever.

Whatever you doing there, you’ve gotta do with this part here. So again, you’re sort of teaching them how this works and make really, I wanna educate and self-power people. So I, I’m really getting away from my hypnotized people into like, this is a global program for educating and leading of which you might be hypnotized along the way.

Um, I’m really changing the way I, I I, I present that to a lot of people on the forum. I run, you know, how hypnosis works, so it’s not really hypnosis cause a lot of people don’t really hypnotize, It’s not really coaching it, it’s, it’s sort of facilitating, leading, reframing, clarifying. Um, but I don’t really what to call it.

So, um, uh, persuade, , influencing. I don’t want it sound like I’m doing something under hand, that’s the thing. Cause you know, he’s gonna influence me. He’s gonna make me do something I don’t really want to eat or something like that. So, um, I, I’m still trying to find a way of presenting it to younger people without them saying, You’ll be in a channel, I’ll make you, you know, eat something with magic hypnosis.

Yeah. And the was was that transition to now kind of, Themeing around a different concept rather than the original come in for the hypnosis. Was that motivated by some sort of external force or just the discovery of, let’s just call it, you know, unpacking what you’ve already been doing and realizing there’s more to it than just this one element?

It was a discovery. Um, I remember a lady, this was my sort of wake up moment. Um, so we did, we did our stuff. It came to change bit and said, Oh, I don’t wanna be hypnotized. I’m a bit of a control freak. So I thought to myself, Well, I don’t really know what else to do, you know, I, I just used, I don’t wanna start tapping or something.

So I said, Well, I’m just gonna go through it anyway. Uh, and basically our thought, and let’s see what happens. And I think she wanted her eyes open as well. And I just spoke, you know, as, as if she were hypnotized and that then she had a strawberry next to her, took it, started eating it. And I thought, well, you know, a system can say I wanna change, but I don’t wanna be hypnotized, but, but I wanna change.

And, you know, that makes sense. Doesn’t Jason, People don’t stop smoking, drinking gabbing, only by seeing hypnotherapist. There’s a change is shift inside. So clearly change is possible with or without hypnosis. So why do I need to impose hypnosis if the system, you know, can change without it? So then I experimented a bit more and I thought, you know, the results are the same whether they hypnotized or not to shift inside.

So then that was a really good selling point. I was saying to people, you don’t even have to be hypnotized. And people said, Great. Cause my son, you know, really hates they’re doing hypnotized. Or some people America were saying, you know, religious reasons. Um, our come to hypnosis said, Sure, let’s not do it.

Um, so that then it developed from. And, um, you know, I’ve got to a point where when I did a demonstration in Melbourne, I had two people. One wanted their eyes closed and the, he was a trainer himself over Lance, you mind me saying, And he said, I’ll close eyes too. And I said, Well, would you mind if you kept your eyes open, actually?

Cause I wanna do a contrast. So keep your eyes open throughout, don’t be hypnotized. And then he was eating food, you know, happily, and he keeps writing. So, um, it’s now been proven. Okay. I think, think, think, understanding how change works more and more, and because of that you don’t need a really long induction.

You know, my, my hypnosis lead in is about a paragraph. Mm-hmm. , um, into it. So, Cause I, Yeah, if you’re gonna change, you’re gonna change. Um, and by now I think I’ve, I’ve sold you. You’re sold on change, so I’m pretty confident you will. And if you don’t, we we’ll cover that, you know, those bases and cross that bridge.

So let’s talk about the specific category of working with the, the selective eat the piggy eaters. Uh, was that something that you went after intentionally or something you discovered that you had a strength with? No. Like a lot of things in life, you fall into it. , there’s no clear plan. Um, I was, uh, I, I had done a, uh, a program here on BBC three called Panic Room, which was, um, mostly animal phobia.

And a couple years later, you know, someone saw that and said, Would you like to work on this protocol, Freak Eats? And I said, What is that? I never heard of it. I said, It’s to do with, uh, you know, people who have these, um, issues around food p eating and stuff. And I was thinking to myself, Well, you know, if it sounds like a phobia and it quacks like a phobia, it probably is a phobia.

So I, I treat like AOB and had really good results. And then from that, people started calling me around the country once they went live. And again, I was doing two and a half hours in the beginning, throwing the kitchen. Um, and, and I was self taught in a way, um, which is for me a really useful way cuz there’s no theory leading it.

It’s pure, purely based on feedback. And then, you know, as people mentioned it, the word of mouth reputation grew and, um, you know, I ended up seeing like a ton of people. So it, it really developed that. But the great thing was there was never, you know, constant stream of people to practice on. And, you know, this is the person with a strawberries who didn’t wanna be hypnotized.

So that taught me a great thing. Um, for a while I played around with a swan, uh, with children, you know, for a bit of fun. I, I now do something else, but it, it’s, it’s a great learning curve for me. Allow me to, to practice and experiment, uh, in different ways and, and always to be able to check the result immediately afterwards so I know what’s working, what’s not, and refine and cherry pick.

So, um, you know, as immensely privileged or, or fortunate to get into something like that, which really just helped my. , um, and take it to another level. So it was a television. So was the opportunity to be on a television program that really helped to become that catalyst towards all this? Yeah. Ab absolutely.

And was that something, was that something you had worked on substantially before that, or kind of going into that with the mindset of, well, this has to work. Let’s see where it goes. Yeah. It, it is like that. I, I say look, I, I, I, I’m, I’m pretty sure it’s a, it’s a phobia. Um, and, um, let’s see what happens. And of, of course, in the program, they, they want you to do a buny jump or, you know, go on a plane or something and somehow say, Well, if you can do that, you can eat a tomato.

And I was thinking, okay, you know, I don’t really do this in my therapy room, but you know, in, in between I’d sort of do some, some stuff. And, um, you know, very quickly I started see results. I remember with my first client, I kind of did parts therapy and he ate some broccoli and the producer came or whoever and said, um, would you mind not doing that because it’s too early, , it’s uh, he said, You know, we want a bit of jeopardy here.

We, we, we, you know, we wanna build up to it and, you know, get the expressions and all that. And if you sort do, And the thing with my therapy is as Howard. Say it, It’s very underwhelming with overwhelming results. You know, when I do it, it’s just, Bernard, it’s conversational, and then someone’s going, Okay, I might as well eat it.

There’s no, you know, there’s no Anthony Robins stuff, you know, hing up and music in the background and a big, you know, build up. It’s just very, And so, um, That doesn’t make for good tv. So what I did is I waited for the bungee jumps and the plane skydiving and stuff like that, and then, you know, I, I’d do something and people would study food.

What I love about that is that so often when the measure of change is something not happening mm-hmm. It’s, it’s respectfully a bit of an underwhelming outcome. It’s like, well, how did it go? Kind of fell asleep on the flight rather than sit there terrified. You know, the, I, I’ve told the story before, and the anecdote is that the more work we do, sometimes we know stories of other people.

I heard Keith Livingston many years ago tell a story. Then finally it happened to me too. So it’s my story now too. The, the guy who calls up from the convention going, Yeah, I was in the elevator and I was bored. What does that mean? It’s like, Well, congratulations. That’s how the rest of us feel in elevators.

Where it’s just a thing they know how to do now, you know, where there’s some novelty to it, there’s some amusement to it, but they just have that ability now to let go of this barrier and just simply move on with their life. Yeah. Yeah. And that, that’s it. I mean, you know, I, I know I’m good at this, so I’m not looking for my ego to be stroked.

You know, I say to people that aim is to feel normal, and what does normal feel? That kind of feels normal. Yeah. . So people come in and they. Say, um, oh, if I could just eat chicken, I’d be amazed and say, Okay. And I’d then do it. They’re eating like 10 things, including chicken and instead of whooping there, Okay.

Some people do break into tears and all their parents do. It’s true. But a lot of the meat go. Yeah, I don’t know about that. Taste a bit crunchy. I think, you know, a hour ago you’d just be happy with chicken. You’re trying 10 things, sometimes 20 things, and a couple of you don’t really like, and they’re not going, Oh my God, I’m eating 20 foods.

Um, but that’s what normal behavior is, you know? So, It’s, it’s very underwhelmed. They’re just like, you know, the, the parents are often more surprised. They’re going, Oh my God, you ate it. What does that feel like? And the kid kind of STRs and it’s okay, I guess. Yeah. But, but how do you feel? Yeah. All right.

Yeah. But, but do you feel amazing? Not really. I just feel okay and, you know, you gotta get used to that because it’s, it’s, it’s just very normal. As I say, you know, when I. Eat food or swim or drive or stroke, a cat, whatever, It’s normal. You know? I don’t punch the air. I just think, yeah, this is what people do, you know, And that’s what we want our clients to do as well.

We don’t want them gushing. Um, we just want them to be like, Yeah, you know, I’ve understood things differently. I’ve, I’ve kind of leveled up, like in a video game. Mm-hmm. , um, I, I kind of feel this way now about stuff. Are you doing anything specifically to inoculate the fact that there still will be foods that they don’t.

Yes, Yes, absolutely. Um, because it’s about making things realistic and, and then, then I say, Well, you know, it’s foods I don’t enjoy. So, um, now, now the thing is you’ve still gotta use your taste, budget, taste bud. Still have to adapt, but you have the opportunity to do that now. And on a spectrum might be foods you might like straight away, like you see on my videos.

There might be Fiji may never liked, like I hate. And there’s food’s in the middle. You, you need to try 5, 10, 15 times for those taste buds to adapt. There’s something you may not like, but when you don’t like them, you calmly take them out and say, I don’t really like that. And so you, you kind of teach them how to cope with that.

So again, responsibility. You’re not gonna love everything. I don’t have that power. Um, it’s, it’s making it sober and realistic about this is what the work is now. Um, you’ve still gotta apply yourself. Um, and, you know, and people say to me on my forum, or I saw Felix a year ago. Um, you know, but, but, um, I haven’t really had any new.

For the last month, and I was saying, you know, we all go through cycles. I go to the gym, but there’s months where I can’t be bothered to go. I just get bored and then I sort of miss it or get a bit fat and then I go again. You know, it’s a recurring theme, you know, no one’s always motivated about the thing.

Um, you know, we go through cycles of, uh, attraction and interest in stuff and losing interest and getting bored. I mean, the same with. So again, you’re teaching people have realistic expectations, um, about how a change works that occasionally you’ve gotta remotivate yourself, you know, you’ve gotta remember why you’re doing this and you’ve gotta plan and apply and, you know, learn some new stuff.

Uh, learn how to cook new food. Um, I can’t really do that for you, but, you know, it’s a natural process. So people, people have naive ideas about how therapy works. As I said, they have these really stringent standards or therapy that they don’t apply when they learn to skateboard or, you know, ride a bike or something.

You to teach them, well this doesn’t really work that way, this is how it works. But, but you know, fans them, they get it. They realize, Oh, it’s helping for his magic pill, magic wand thing. Um, no, not really. Um, the funny thing is though, Jason, I’m sure you’ve seen it cause I know how it has in other people.

Those who come in prepared for hard work, it almost always seems like a magic wand because they’re already in that right mindset where they’re willing to put in the work, you know? And, and because they’re doing that, they’re doing their part of the bargain. They, they just sail through it. Um, and that makes our job really easy.

You know, when, when the client is good, and I’m trying to explain to people, not everyone is equal. Um, you know, some clients, some harder work than others. You can’t really see the hypnosis work or. Well, you know, even if my hypnosis is the same or my, my format is the same for everybody. The clients are different.

That’s the variable. And, you know, some people are harder than others to treat with. So, um, you know, there’s a, there’s a boy who’s, um, in a car driving by a lake and there’s a sign that said, Don’t you know frozen lake in America? And it’s like, don’t, don’t go on it. Um, because it might be thin and he had a vision of a car going through it, then he kind of traumatized himself and then he can be afraid of lakes.

I mean, is this a boy who worries more, who’d be harder than your average boy? Yeah. You know, uh, this is a child who spooks themselves constantly about stuff. Uh, they, they need got more work to do. So, um, it, it’s also teaching person, uh, this is what change work entail. And I’ve gotta get away from, I’ve paid money.

Where’s my magic fix? Right. Yeah. Because a lot of people are selling that, unfortunately, either through ignorance or worse. Um, and it’s really reeducating people. It’s just not how change works. Well, there’s something refreshing about that, that, you know, I, I, one of the themes as I work with people is that, You know, the one who comes in expecting it to be hard.

Often that’s how it plays out. The one who’s coming in expecting it to be easy. Um, I’ve rebuilt how my smokers see me, that they watch an extended video on the website and then they book themselves and then I follow up to confirm the appointment. So, That’s a dynamic where I’m speaking with people after they’ve paid for the service.

And there’s a beautiful moment last week where I’m calling a guy up and you know, it does ring back to the sales phrasing of, uh, once you get the sales shut up that he’s . He’s saying, Are you concerned? I mean, I’m looking forward to stopping smoking next Friday. That’s why I. It’s like, well, the website said I’d call you up just to check in and say hello.

Oh yeah. Well, I’m gonna bring my cigarettes to throw them out. Anything else, which, Oh, okay. You see them where they are, help them to get where they want to be. That, But then again, there is that place of being open for that surprise, that ease of it. Yeah. Yeah. Now you kinda remind me, people say, Look, you are my last hope.

I’ve literally tried everything and rather than putting pressure on myself, say, Listen, clearly this process works because six year olds can do it. So I know you can do it. If you follow instructions, you will get a result. Yeah. So follow the instructions and if you’re not getting the result, we’ll check.

Did you understand the instructions? Did something else come up? But you will get there. If you keep doing what’s needed, you know, again, you gotta teach them how it works and put responsibility back. And then rather than, I will fix you, I can’t fix you. Let’s, we just gotta get away from that. You know? That, that’s, that’s the, the big, um, um, unhelpful thing that TV, hypnosis or whatever has done is this idea that, you know, we fix people, we, we, we change them with these magic words.

Um, and, and you know, I think in stage hypnosis it seems like that, but in, in therapy, um, If hypnosis had this power, I, I’ve had people deeply hypnotized who still didn’t change. Yes. So it can’t be about hypnosis. I have people who weren’t hypnotized, They did massive changes. So it’s not the depth of hypnosis we’re talking about that, that that is the thing.

Cause people say it didn’t really work very well for my son. Can we do hypnosis again and say, Well, it’s not like if we go deeper, he’ll do it this time When a child’s anxious, you know, that they probably don’t wanna be hypnotized or relaxed or anything. Anyways, it’s, it’s not. Overriding that with a sledge hammer.

Um, it it’s more about the system understanding what needs to happen. Cause if a person’s anxious, they don’t know how to reassure themselves. They, they’ve understood things differently. They don’t reassure themselves through when it gets difficult. Uh, and then I use examples again, you know, of how they’ve reassured themselves through learning a sport or an exam or something that they have success in.

So, Um, it’s all about educating. This is how change takes place and getting away from can we do a deeper hypnosis next time? And I’m curious to ask, you’ve brought up several times a forum. Uh, what, what, what is the forum? Um, it, it is, I’m afraid it’s a selective eating disorder forum. I’ve got one for, uh, adults and one for children.

Um, it is private because, um, people wanna speak openly. They don’t want therapists there observing, so I’m only letting in people with actual, you know, um, Alfred or selective eating problems. But I will have my own forum, the four Rs training protocol. In fact, I’ve already got on Facebook where we can speak about things like this openly because, you know, uh, clients like to open up.

They don’t feel like there’s people they’re watching and analyzing. It makes them clam up a bit. But basically you’ve created, you’ve created some sort of ongoing support mechanism for your clients, is what you’re getting at. Definitely. And, and the good news is, you know, people say It’s my second year since Sing Felix, and you know, I’m having Christmas lunch and whatever.

So it’s good to know, you know, cause people say, Well this is wear off or something, and you got longitudinal feedback. . Um, sometimes people need refreshers. Sometimes people lose motivation, as I said, like me in the gym. So every kind of feedback, um, is that’s available, is presented. And that’s good because, you know, I’m, I’m not hiding anything.

This is how change what works. Some people, they need more input. Some people, um, they’re fine after two years, 10 years. So, um, I, I’m not trying to hide anything. You always explain to people. People are people, people respond to therapy in different ways and this is the spectrum of, of possibilities. Um, with it and it educates them.

But you know, despite what I say, Jason, I saw Felix, I hate something that session a week later, I’m really not. Uh, has anyone tried anything else? It’s a bit like, you know, I went to the gym a few times. I lost some weight, but then I stopped going and the weight’s back on. What else should I try? Um, well, you don’t really go to the gym once or twice.

You know, you, you’ve gotta keep going at it until the body makes some kind of, you know, uh, change that you can then maintain. So, um, it, it’s that view of, I paid money, where’s my fix? Right? Rather take responsibilities. Those are my worst clients. The people that, despite I’m saying it, and at least four or five different ways in the session, they still think I paid money, change me.

Even though I wanna keep my eyes open. I’m reluctant. Don’t really think will work anyway. Where’s my magic fix? Um, those are my least preferred clients, obviously, and I’m not sure, I’m not alone. Um, they want everything while offering nothing. I’d share what I’d highlight here is that theme of, again, that responsibility within the client that, you know, we’re looking at using, if we’re gonna be using a hypnotic context, using the hypnosis as the catalyst to get the change in motion.

Yeah. Then here’s the thing that they’re doing to, to, to keep that in place. And this idea of ongoing support, whether it’s a form, whether it’s teaching them specific techniques that place that, uh, you know, they’re gonna run into things that, again, back to the theme that. Foods they won’t like. Uh, my, my quick anecdote of that is that I lost rapport with a parent many years ago, but made instant rapport with the child when I admitted, well, my opinion is mushrooms are disgusting and you can’t argue with me on that.

And the little girls in front of me two weeks later going, I’m better at this than you are because I tried mushrooms and I like them brilliant. Yeah. So, where can people, where can people learn at, learn more about your work? Well, um, so there’s two options. One is I’m rolling out a live training, so it’s, you know, see me in action with, with a client, couple of clients from the forum as volunteers.

And, and the useful thing about that is, um, you can ask questions about any part of the process. It can be very customized. You can say to me, I, I do a lot of work with, uh, You know, this kind of anxiety disorder, what would you do for that? And I can talk about more detail. Um, and then if you can’t make the live training, there’s also this prerecorded, uh, video of, um, couple of clients I saw, um, back in March.

And, um, you know, in the future there might be some kind of tele seminar webinar or something like that. But there is a four Rs Pro training site. Uh, one is on Facebook and one is just on WordPress. So if you do a search for four Rs, I’m sure you’ll find it. And, um, let me know if there’s any questions about that.

But, uh, it’s, it’s an exciting time to be finding, you know, showing people my stuff. Um, and, um, you know, it’s, it’s kind, exciting opportunity sort of take it out there and maybe, you know, do some of the roots people do have no thoughts or, you know, Holland or. Stuff like that. It’s, it’s an exciting change as well.

It’s time for me to teach what I know, um, just as I’ve benefited from others, you know, it’s kind of my turn, uh, to do that, um, input, contribute to part of the greater learning process as well. I’ve learned a lot from other people, and it’s time to, well,

Jason Lynette here once again, and as always, thank you so much for sharing this session on your social media streams for leaving your positive reviews online as well. And once again, check out the show notes for this session for the details on Felix’s upcoming trainings and amazing news stories. And once again, also check out hypnotic workers.com.

It’s the all access pass to my hypnosis training library. Get started the day for just $47. Hypnotic workers.com. See you on the inside. Thanks for listening to the Work Smart Hypnosis Podcast and work smart hypnosis.com.