Podcast Session #324 – Derry Cooke on Remodelling Hypnosis

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Derry Cooke is a Hypnotherapist, IAPCH member, and the Owner of HypnosisWorks, a hypnosis practice based in Whangarei, New Zealand where he specializes in helping people who have experienced trauma. By working with people through their trauma, he has committed himself to learning and internalizing other people’s methods and, over time, making them his own. Derry has a background in nursing with 30 years of experience in the health industry, gaining a reputation as the one who is good with difficult patients. He holds a bachelor’s degree in psychology from the University of Auckland. However, since discovering hypnosis at the age of nine, hypnotherapy and NLP have become Derry’s true passion.

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Derry joins me today to discuss remodeling hypnosis. He shares how we can better approach the process of change by having better perspectives. He explores updating the models in terms of the classic NLP presuppositions and asks whether hypnotists have all the resources we need to create change. We discuss faith and how it applies to hypnosis. Derry breaks down The Arrow Technique and the interactions between negative and positive emotions. He also shares why it is vital to create consistency in our change work so we can ask the right questions at the right time to serve our clients better.

“ When you take this fresh approach to looking at things, your efficacy just goes up.” – Derry Cooke

  • How working on the body and deep tissue tension can elicit powerful memories, demonstrating the body and mind are one
  • Derry’s experience with training with Freddy Jacquin and The Arrow Technique
  • How The Arrow Technique can be used to ‘switch off’ chronic and acute pain
  • The three emotions and primary energy behind issues that trouble people
  • Using the positive drivers of human experience in The Arrow Technique
  • The principles of Derry’s remodelling approach, why you should always test your work, and the significant benefits of understanding how your techniques work

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Podcast Episode Transcripts:

Disclaimer: Transcripts were generated automatically and may contain inaccuracies and errors.


This is the Work Smart Hypnosis Podcast, session number 320. Dairy Cook on remodeling Hypnosis. Welcome to the Work Smart Hypnosis Podcast with Jason Lynette, your professional resource for hypnosis training and outstanding business success. Here’s your host, Jason Lynette. What you’re about to listen to is what I like to call a one hour conversation in which we cover like seven or eight days worth of material.

You’re in for a treat listening to this conversation with Dairy Cook from New Zealand, and I first met dairy in like 2015 at the Hypno Thoughts live conference in Las Vegas. And then over the years he’s interacted inside of our business community [email protected] But also over time, as I was kind of following this guy who I had briefly met, he quickly kind of positioned himself as somebody.

Would learn something and really pour as much effort as he could into the learning of it and really work shopping a method to make sure he could really make it work. But then even better at times, as he’s about to tell the story in this conversation, be able at times to often kind of better explain how this thing was actually working even better at times than the person who would teach it, Which is quite a feat when you think about it.

But it came about from this mindset as, as he shares working with people through trauma and going through a journey of I, I’d say politely, several false starts in terms of an education and eventually landing on something that clearly he was meant to do. And over time by really internalizing other people’s methods and over time, making them absolutely his own.

When you hear some of the themes that he hits under this header of remodeling, hypnosis, Wow, there’s some cool takeaways. And by the time this releases, be sure to head over to the show [email protected] and see exactly how to learn more from dairy. There’s some incredible themes of looking at how we can better approach change, how we can better update the models in terms of the classic NLP presuppositions as to whether or not we have all the resources we need to create change.

Some fun little vignettes in the middle, talking about faith and exactly how that applies over to hypnosis. And then even better, how do we create consistency in our change work so we can ask the right questions at the right time to better serve our clientele? So there’s a lot to cover in this week’s episode.

Listen, all the way through, there’s some amazing content in terms of how we actually can approach the process of change. From better perspectives and take, what often begins is about maybe a third of our people who hit some phenomenal results, and how do we widen that to get greater results with all of whom that we work with?

Plus an incredible little nuance of how exactly do you get to have these really incredible conversations, one to one with some of the top people in any profession? Well, you’ll hear that story inside of this conversation too. So again, be sure to check out the show [email protected] to find out how to better connect with Dairy Cook, as well as his projects concerning remodeling, hypnosis, and while you’re there to check out hypnotic business systems.com.

Here’s a nuance of this program, by the way, Dairy actually joined it when it was under a different name in 2015, and I now do a lifetime access thing with people, which means once you’re paid in full for the program, , you get all the future updates. So I, I had to glance briefly when Dairy joined, it was actually about one third.

The program cost that it is now, it’s gone up over time because we keep adding content to it. So respectfully, if you’ve ever [email protected] and you’re on the fence, it’s probably in your better interest to jump in. Now, that being said, let me give you a shortcut, jason webinar.com show is better than Tell, and inside of this free on-demand webinar presentation, it’s called Six Steps to a Six Figure Hypnosis Business.

It’s not just about giving you the headlines in terms of what to do. This online presentation is different because step by step it’s gonna give you some strategies you can put into use, right? Some of them, well, six of them . So head over to jason webinar.com. That’ll give you a bit of a preview of the content inside of Hypnotic Business Systems, Plus give you actionable strategies you can put to use today.

Check that [email protected] That’s a preview of everything inside of hypnotic business systems.com. And with that, let’s jump directly into this content pack session. I’m so excited to finally have dairy on the program. This is episode number 324 Dairy Cook on remodeling hypnosis. The um, story for me starts with my dad.

He was. Having some issues as a literal, so nebulous. He was sleep walking. On one occasion we found him walking up and down a metal drive and he, his feet were bleeding, but he was still fast to sleep. So he bought himself a book called Self Hypnotism. The Technique in, it’s used by, I think Leslie leron and I stole it.

Let me pause you there, Derek. Cuz usually, usually I’m the one when someone says, Oh, I stole this technique. And I go, No, no, no. You modeled excellently. No. In this situation you really did steal it. . Yeah, I, I, yeah, I still have the book. I’m holding it right. Nice. Yeah, I devoured it and it was amazing. It was the start of a whole journey, you know, the falling down the rabbit hole.

I remember making myself a pendulum out of a piece of string and an old washer or something, and I was chatting with this seemingly other part of who I was that I think, um, Leron called the Inner Mind and it was not me. There was a sense of an engagement with the other, and I was doing all kinds of self hypnosis stuff and absolutely loved it.

This was at the ripe old age, probably of about nine years. and I’ve dipped in and out of hypnosis ever since I’ve, I’ve discovered now that I’m actually trained in it, that a lot of the stuff that I’ve encountered that impressed me over the years was just hypnosis, repackaged, and rebranded and given a different name.

Some of the techniques that I use, again, kind of self fpn things were phenomenal. But along the journey, I guess I have to do a little detour into what happened when I was seven years old, which was more than one occasion I was raped and I was convinced that I was the only person that this had ever happened to.

And part of the story at the time was, Don’t tell anyone. And I took that to heart and kept that all inside and it messed me up. And I figured out somewhere along the line that I would need to somehow. I miss myself and. It didn’t occur to me that self hypnosis, I don’t think actually I would’ve had this, the objectivity to use the self hypnosis to do that.

So I got the idea of wanting to train as a a psychologist. So off I went to university to do my psychology degree. I discovered two things there. One, which is that all the other students were pretty much there for the same reason. They were all pretty messed up, and were all trying to figure out how to fix themselves.

But the other thing I discovered was that a psychology degree, at least as I was taught psychology, it was all about rats and pigeons and not so much about human beings. When you say rats and pigeons, what do you mean by that? Oh, I mean, you learn, the university I went to, which was the University of Auckland here in New Zealand, they are very what’s called behaviorist, and the behaviorist mindset says that there nothing exists unless you can measure it.

Therefore, for example, there is no such thing as happiness. They would probably get a little bit irate if you talked about a smile, but you can talk about the elevation of the corners of the mouth. So it’s quite a bloodless and it’s, yeah, entirely. You observe the behavior. That’s where the whole behavior modification strategies come from.

That if somebody, yeah, if somebody has an eating disorder, if you can modify their behavior so that they are eating more and putting on weight, then you’ve solved the problem. And yeah, I, I found that that whole approach. Left me absolutely cold. So I came out at the end with my degree in psychology and thought I really need to do something else because I haven’t really engaged with what I wanted, which was engaging with people.

So that was what led me to the start of my nursing career. There’s an interesting thing to highlight there, which I always have to give this a disclaimer that this is in our rather sensitive world. This is not my quote. This is the quote of someone who will say she was a counselor and she still is a counselor.

She’s just now a counselor who also uses hypnotic techniques that she brought up something and she gave me the metaphor that I’ll mention here in a. Or that she put it, she goes, All of my education was about, in some way here in the us the insurance model, that I can’t really work with someone until there’s a specific label we can attach to them.

Because if I don’t attach a label, the insurance won’t cover it for the patient and I can’t get paid. Not that that’s the entire focus, but it’s trained me to become dissociative. The moment that I sit down with someone that I have to now approach the label. And she goes, What I got from hypnosis was the ability just to sit down and.

How do you wanna feel? What do you want to be different? And I, and I’ve heard that description at times of that model of, well, we can’t, it’s not about the happiness, it’s about the specific measurables. And if you remember the Robin Williams movie, Dead Poet Society. Oh yeah, yeah. The scene where it’s early in the movie, but there’s a scene about the quality of a poem based on the measurement of the syllables on the line, and then the lines of text.

And it’s this perfect illustration of taking the art, taking the personality, taking the passion out of something. Yeah. And I love that moment where he just tells his students to just tear the pages out of the book

Yeah. So, so yeah, that, that was what basically led me into nursing. And I soon, Gained a reputation. Um, one of the first areas that I more or less fell into was stroke rehabilitation. I, I did that for six years and gained a reputation as being somebody who was really good with the difficult clients. And I don’t know how or why that was, but I seemed to be able to engage with people and certainly that training in.

Rapport. That was all hypnosis training, although I wasn’t framing it like that at the time. Over the years I came and went from nursing. I, I had a stint there as a body worker, um, doing deep tissue body work and discovering all sorts of things. Um, one of the really powerful insights that I got was my teacher was a guy called Joseph Heller, not the author of Catch 22, but the other Joseph Heller, who was literally a rocket scientist, but also put together a type of body work training that he rather humbly called Heller work.

He was a student of Ida Roll who was the creator of something called Rolfing. That, yeah, you may have heard of very intense deep tissue work, but Ida Roll apparently one day said something that resonated and it certainly resonated with me, which is that the body is the only part of the mind we can put our hands on.

That the idea of there being a mind and a body and a brain, these are just words where we are talking about the one thing and some of the experiences that I had as a body worker. When you working on the tension inside somebody’s jaw and then suddenly all of this anger and, and they are back spontaneously regressed to a memory when they were seven years old.

Things like that are quite commonplace and deep tissue message where working on the body, you can elicit very powerful memories that somehow seem to be embodied. Now are they actually in the tissues or are they in the part of the brain that references those tissues? Yes. . Mm-hmm. . Yeah. One of the other side journeys that I did was into computer programming and I, I worked for a while as a software engineer, um, working with the Java programming language.

And realized that we have probably created computer programming languages to model how the brain works. And so I, I’ve got this very, now that I’m actually working as a clinician, I’ve got this very kind of systems-oriented approach to what I’m doing. It’s like I don’t just want to throw technique at an issue and hope I get a result from it.

I want to know what’s actually going on. Yeah. And one of my informal teachers, he was a very, very dear friend since passed on, he said, passed on a bit of wisdom that he had received and that when something like this, you know, to para, to paraphrase, pay attention to what people say that they’re doing, and try to find out what they’re really doing.

Hmm. And I’ve absolutely taken that approach to, um, my hypnosis practice. My training initially in hypnosis was the conversational style through the Eagle Letter Hoki Hypnosis Training Academy, and my teacher, and that first training was Steve Ram. Hi Steve. If you’re listening, it was a phenomenal experience here.

I was. This was only six years ago now here I was for the very, very first time, hypnotizing somebody else and discovering that I was getting somewhat of a reputation among the other students as this guy’s really good. And I certainly found, felt like I had come home. And I, I left with, you know, it’s only a week’s training, something like that.

I left with my wonderful certificate and came home and started working with volunteers straight away and discovered something really interesting, which is that in some cases, Well, let me, let me pause you there for a second. Yeah, sure. A bit of a cliff hanger and, we’ll, we’ll come back to that because there’s so much inside of what you just shared.

I wanna go back and begin to highlight it. Whi, which you mentioned early on, which thank you for sharing some of your history there and as many people. Would get into a helping profession as a means to, you know, first of all, kind of, let’s use the word fix, What’s kind of needing assistance in their life from that perspective?

Is there something I, I’m curious to ask this because that’s something that we’ve seen a lot in trainings. Have you kept in contact with people that you had gone to university with that, you know, I’m curious to hear if there’s any sort of divide versus people who went after that education. Purely for their own personal development versus folks like you that it may have evolved over time, yet still the basic tenants are there in terms of working and helping people.

Yeah, The easy and disappointing answer to that question is I haven’t kept in contact with those people I’ve moved out of, out of area, and I didn’t have particularly close relationships with any of the other students. It wasn’t really encouraged and probably I sucked at it. So,

or let’s phrase it this way, you were there for other educational purposes, so you succeeded . Yeah, no, cuz that’s something that not everybody is, is something that I think is useful for anyone out there, even as an instructor at times. It’s that revelation and I’ll, I’ll make this. Generic for obvious reasons.

There was an event we were a part of producing a while ago and there was someone at the event who was kind of going around to people in, in a very, I’ll call it inappropriate way going, If you’re not doing the practice sessions, you’re not gonna get certified almost as a bit of a threat. And we kind of had to rally together to go, Not everybody is here for that goal.

Not everybody is there at the event for the goal of getting the shiny piece of paper with their name printed on it. With the signature that people are coming in with different levels and I’ll, I’ll say this respectfully, as I move my office twice and now no longer have a public office, I could care less what piece of paper cuz it’s gonna go into a drawer before I forget about it.

you know, cuz it’s, I’m here for a specific set of knowledge. So there, there’s this interesting conversation versus. And I have no specific answer. That’s why I was curious to ask you as to people who come into it from their own personal experience, but I’d, I’d kind of ask and, and share as much as appropriate here.

Having gone through what you’ve gone through in terms of education and now helping others to produce change, has that informed you in a way how to better help people who have to say it politely gone through things that people ha shouldn’t have to go? Yeah, I specialize now in my practice with people who’ve been traumatized.

I don’t seek them out, I don’t run around chasing ambulances, but somehow they seem to find me, um, not, not the ambulances to people. The, honestly, the, the thing which has absolutely informed my practice more than anything else has been 3D Jacque’s, a technique that was an absolute game changer, and I was lucky enough, I was one of the very first to learn the, A technique through their online product.

And then I was, Lucky enough to have the opportunity to train with Freddie and Anthony in Australia and even more lucky to have the opportunity to drive them an hour and a half back to the airport. And Anthony of course, fell asleep in the back seat. And, Hi, Anthony . Nice. Fred and I had an interesting conversation and he said more or less as an icebreaker, you know, I really love this arrow technique.

I’ve got no idea how it works though. And I went, Oh, well I think I know how it works. And I gave him my. Model and he listened very politely and I, he nodded and made affirmative noises. I still don’t know whether he was being polite or not , but when I first learned the arrow technique, and this is a story that bears telling, I wanted to practice it and I had a both booked at, we’ll call it an expo.

It was called the Body Mind, Spirit Expo, where you know, they were in there with the horror readers and the clear voy and the car fortune tellers and. And I’m just wanting to practice this, a technique. Now the arrow technique was sold and I bought it as a, as a pain relief technique. And you know that from my background in nursing.

That’s an interesting side note that the original promotion was all about hypnotic pain relief. And even when Freddy Freddy was on this program, he talked similar as well. And this is a cool nod to the two of them that as their students took a process and made it their own. The entire community began to change the conversation around it, which is an awesome way.

You look at the original Dave Elman trainings, and that was the format. Dave would teach something, the medical staff would go off and use it, and then come back and share, and everything morphed together. Yeah, well I was possibly one of the, the main drivers of the generalization of that technique. I was very active in the Arrow forum and I, every time I would find an application for it, I’d come in and tell a little client story.

But, and at this expo I was literally grabbing people walking past and saying, Have I been hypnotized? No. Oh, sit down. At this stage I wasn’t even charging for the demonstrations like I do now, But, um, I’d just say, What would you like to change? And they would give me something and I would run the, a technique on whatever.

And in the course of that weekend, I did work with some people with chronic pain. I had one woman literally put away her crutches and limp away saying, I think I’ve just been using these as a crutch, which . I love that, but I found that yes, this does actually help people switch off severe chronic pain.

I’ve since found it works beautifully on acute pain as well. And we can perhaps dive into some of my experience in the emergency department. Now, you, you dropped a seed that you can’t leave cultivated here. Yeah. What, what was that description that made that process work, in your opinion? Well, I, I have a sense of the underlying neurology.

I love the meta pattern, you know, John Odor, um, via Melissa Tears via a friend of mine that I did the training with that I met up with hyp thoughts was telling me about this thing and I, I sat in on a couple of Melissa’s classes and I’ve been brought Melissa’s book on, keeping the brain in mind very, very interested in what’s going on inside of the brain.

And I. Have this idea and this builds into where my current thinking goes and, and the whole approach that I’m now using, that when people have particular issues that are troubling them, they are usually powered by, we can call it emotional energy. And the emotions are sometimes purely one, but usually a blend of different things.

And the there are three that are most common, anger, fear, and grief. And if we think of these as being like primary colors, then people are able to mix any one of the different colors from these primary energies and from any blend of them. You know, obviously a phobia is mostly. But I found that this energy seems to somehow lend relevance to experiences in a way that that gets embodied into the brain.

And I did a bit of a diversion and somewhat of a deep dive into what they’re doing in the Blue Brain Project, which is using ai. And something that I don’t understand, you know, I lack the double PhD, but it’s a thing called algebraic topology. But these people have modeled what goes on in the brain, and they’ve found that every neuron in the brain, although it.

Is directly connected to on average 7,000 others, the neurons organize themselves into these little work groups that have a maximum size of about 12, I think it is. So if you need more neuron power, then you have more of these little circuits. They call them clicks or clicks depending on you know, what school you went to.

But these clicks of neurons, they form these assemblies. And I think to the extent in which they mesh with the physical experience, which is the embodiment of those emotions, that’s the extent to which problems are real for people. And pain is another one of these embodied emotional experiences. And if the A technique can switch pain off, then it can probably switch just about anything off in terms of switching off these assemblies.

and how the arrow works. I think, and this is one of the most amazing insights that I’ve ever had in terms of hypnosis, and it’s from Fred Jack when, where he describes hypnosis as create an emotion, then give a suggestion, and it’s the, it’s the powerful, positive emotion. So, you know, not the fear, the anger, and the sadness, but the model that I follow draws quite heavily from the work of a guy called Yak Pink Set.

And I can, we can put that in the show notes, I guess. But he’s written extensively on the powerful, positive things as well as the negative ones and the. Drivers of human experience are, what do you call seeking or curiosity. And then there’s, you know, lust, sexual arousal. There is playfulness. And then the last one is caring or unconditional love.

And the arrow technique, certainly the way that Freddy demonstrates it and teaches it, absolutely uses that unconditional love energy. It’s asking people, imagine you can see the face of the one you love most, and let yourself feel, feel that energy, let yourself see their face, hear their laughter, and so forth.

And as you build up that powerful energy inside you, essentially what you’re doing is you’re activating an independent, functional part of the brain, which is running on a completely incompatible experience. So on the one hand, you’ve got the problem state, which is perhaps. Running on fear. And then you’ve got this other state which you are arousing and building up inside the client, which is based on unconditional love.

And then given what we know about how the brain makes new connections and potentially at the rate of a million every second inside the Arrow technique, there is a moment where you just jam these two things together. You know, you fire somebody through the target, and as they go through, essentially what you’re doing is you are taking them, you are taking all that powerful, positive energy, and you’re just briefly taking it straight through into that negative experience and out the other side.

But in that moment, connections are formed and at destabilizes the entire structure that the problem state can no longer produce the same outputs because somehow now it has become connected into unconditional love. And I can imagine these poor little neurons scratching their heads and looking at each other and going, What the hell?

I’m outta here because every one of those, um, neurons is connected to 7,000 others. So they’ve got better things to do with their time than stay in this little work group, which is seemingly lost. Its its functional purpose, and so just as we can switch off severe, chronic and severe acute pain, we can switch off things like trauma.

We can switch off virtually any presenting issue that somebody comes. What I love about what you just shared though, is the fact that when we look at a technique and we ask what’s actually making this work, we are able to unpack from it a formula that, yes, here’s a technique, one that I’ve used at times one, that many people around the world now know.

But by asking those questions as to what, and I think the, the careful word here is what may be going on. Yeah. In terms of how, Yeah, what may be going on in terms of how it works. What’s great about that is it leaves behind a bit of a formula. Which allows us to then look at other techniques, Everything you’ve just said.

I have a funny thing that I do with clients to go, Would you like to hear the high tech neurology and science scientific detail of everything we’re about to do? And they say Yes. And I’m clearly setting them up for something where I then draw like a wavy line with my hand about maybe, uh, waist level.

And it’s like, here’s the frequency in your mind of all the stuff you’re currently doing. Phase one, we’re going to interrupt it, and then I draw a second line a little bit higher, then we’re gonna run this better pattern. So this better pattern replaces the old pattern. Yeah. Makes sense. And they go, Yeah.

I go, There’s the science ready to get started . Sure. Um, which as soon as we understand a formula, and I love the way you phrased it as to Yes, we’re bringing out another emotion and if we want to oversimplify all of hypnosis, coaching, counseling, consulting, all of it, all we’re ever doing is showing people they have more options and more strategies.

And helping to change things along the way, but recognizing that, as you’ve said and, and what you shared in terms of helping people with trauma is to start with the positive emotion, bring the positive result into it. Would you say that’s a fair statement? Yeah. The, the first question is always, what do you wanna have happened in today’s session?

And then the second question, absolutely hard on its heels. How would you rather be feeling? And, and that’s, that’s the, uh, we have this expression in New Zealand, the stunned mullet. That’s the expression where people just look as though you’re speaking another language. What do you mean? How would I want to be feeling it?

How is, you know, it’s something that they’ve never considered because so much of their energy is often absorbed in just trying to manage the issue that they’re dealing with, which I have to highlight. One little quick thing to transition here. You mentioned that wanting to get to know the Jack winds better, so you gave them a ride.

Hmm. I wanted to get to know Michael Elner better and we ended up rooming together at a conference and to mention a name you’ve already referenced, students of mine wanted to get to know Melissa Tier. So what she mentioned, she had needed a ride from the NG conference in the Boston area to New York City.

They volunteered even though they live in Vermont, in the opposite direct. Sometimes a bit of creativity to hang out with the people you wanna learn from. Yeah. I would’ve, I would’ve hired a car to drive mil , and I don’t even drive on the right side of the road. But, uh, no. Hey, what add to the, No, I’ve had that moment of going, how do I.

Have a conversation with people, and I’ll say it politely, from the former theater career, there are folks that I was able to sit down with an hour for like an hour and have conversations with and just say it simply, It took some creativity. You were revving up towards something a little earlier though, about the sort of environment of what you were learning from trainings and then some discoveries you were making as you started to go out and work with regular everyday people.

Could you, could you expand on that? Yeah, sure. Look, my wife sees clients. She’s a cranial psychotherapist and she very kindly organized five of her clients to come and be Guinea pigs. And I saw them all on the, on the one day and two of those clients, absolutely, I got nowhere with. , and I understand why now, but at the time I, I didn’t get why this wasn’t working, but one of them, I absolutely knocked it out of the park and the other two were pretty good and they were happy and they came back for more sessions and wrote me a testimonial.

But this one that where I knocked it out of the park was a mind blowing result, and it was with somebody I should never actually have ever taken on as a client. And it was a man who had a diagnosis of clinical depression, a label, and he was taking antidepressants and had been for 20 years. And I was trained in a protocol where, you know, this is what you do with clients in a first session.

And then if that doesn’t work when they come back for a second session, you do this. And if they still need a third session, then you do that. Well, halfway through the first session, he starts doing third session stuff that just, he kind of hijacked the process. And so I find that I’m needing to do regression with him.

Well, he had already regressed himself to this particular issue and we were able to work with that really safely and in a really, Really powerful way and hats off to Eagle’s training for that cause. The way he has a very holistic and healthy approach to teaching people around regression. And certainly Steve taught that very well.

And inside of the session we worked with a particular issue and I got the result at the end of the session. You know, the 1, 2, 3 snap of the fingers when he opened his eyes, he said, What all of our clients say, My God, there’s something wrong with my face. And his hands flew up to his face and he looked a little bit like McCauley Colton from the home alone thing,

And so I am thinking what they, if am I going to do now? And he asked me did I have a mirror? And I said, there’s one in the hall. So Offy goes out to the hallway and I’m. Breathing a sigh of relief cuz this gives me a few more seconds to try and figure out what the hell I’m going to do . Cause he’s got something wrong with his face.

And then about 30 seconds later he comes in and he is grinning like an idiot. He says, I’m smiling, aren’t I? And I said, Yes, you are nice. And he said, This hurts. He says, I haven’t smiled in 20 years. . And I followed up with him a few weeks later and his life was transformed. He had three kids, they’d never seen their dad smile, you know?

Wow. His wife, he was present at the birth of the children. He hadn’t been able to smile, but now suddenly he could smile. So that, that blew my mind. It’s like, how is it that I’m able to get these amazing results in some sessions and in other sessions, just not, How is it that with two of those five people.

Just fell flat. Now, I discovered very early on that I was getting about a, it was about the law of three. So about one in three people. I’d get amazing results with one in three I would absolutely bomb with, and one in three would be, you know, pretty good enough to make them feel like, you know, they’d done something.

But I wanted to, I wanted to do better than that. So I really looked further afield. I started listening to your podcast, Adam Eons Hypnosis Weekly podcast, and particularly enjoying being exposed to a whole variety of different hypnotherapist, most of whom had a different definition of hypnosis, and discovering that there wasn’t really.

Any overall agreement in the field is still what on earth it is we’re actually doing. So that led me to do my deep dive into the neurology of it and into what might be happening. And I’ve come up with a model that I think works, certainly works well for me and my model of the work at Heta Pass three criteria.

The first is it needs to be internally consistent. There shouldn’t be any bits that disagree with any of the other bits. Secondly, it needs to fit in with my, admittedly, somewhat limited understanding of neurology. But the third one is it has to absolutely fit in with the experience that I see my clients creating.

And yeah, so I’ve, I’ve got this approach now that I call remodeling and I’ve kind of touched on on it. Already in that when people come to us, they carry within them. That problem is embodied. It’s modeled inside of their brain, and the model is powered by that kind of emotional energy. Now, it doesn’t have to be the arrow technique.

You can use most any kind of technique you want to. You can invoke guardian angels if you want. You can do the emotional detox stuff of putting all of one energy into one hand and then all the solution into the other hand, and then bringing them together. That works beautifully. You could do an NLP SW pattern so long as you understand what you’re doing and it’s driven with that intent.

That’s where the change comes from, I think. Yeah. I love that as a concept of looking at the entry point. Can you expand on what you mean by internally consistent? That sometimes there’s opposition within a, would you say that’s opposition within a process or opposition within the client? How would you define that?

There is no point in coming up with a, a model of, well, okay, here’s, here’s something from within our field. I could get into talking about theology, but I’ll anger a lot of people, so I won’t, but let’s, let’s, let’s , let’s keep it within our field. Hey, we’re more than a half an hour and let’s make it an Easter act so they can find it

Yeah. Well, within our field, we have this idea that the client has all the resources they need to fix their problem. And we also have this other idea that the subconscious mind is this all powerful, all-knowing, benevolent, wonderful force. And we’re kind of getting back into theology here when you think about it because, Right?

Yeah. The idea of the subconscious mind kind of gets conflated with the sort of qualities that might otherwise be ascribed to your day of choice. That it is all knowing, all powerful and all be, And then we hit that inconsistency that in theology they call the problem of evil, which is if you’ve got this all powerful, all knowing part of you, which only wants things to be good for you, then how come it hasn’t sorted this issue out in the first place?

So for me, that model has an internal inconsistency. So I’m sorry. Out it goes. Well, let’s, let’s, let’s take a moment on that. Yeah. Cause I’d be hear, hear your thoughts on this because. It’s where it was not the rabbi that I grew up with being raised Jewish. We’ll leave it at that. But the rabbi who was there having pork baby back ribs, , because there’s the reaction I was going for because quote, Well, it was a tradition back in the olden times to not eat these foods because they were not healthy.

Back then. Remember it was Louis Pasture, a Jew who came up with the process to make dairy safe and now it’s safe, and now it’s delicious. Would you like some more? And that probably explains a lot of my personal belief systems at this point. , No, but it’s where there’s one school of thought. Let’s go off of religion for a moment.

Not to go too far into this would be that for some, these are literal stories. And for others, these are stories in which to draw meaning out. So was there really a giant by the name of Goliath? Let’s just go off of that. Did this man really get stuck inside of the whale? And we’ll kind of put it out onto that context here.

So I’d bring this up because just as there’s an intended gray area sometimes and any model in which we learn from stories, that’s kind of my perception on things like when I hear the perception on you have all the resources inside of you, and forgive my Namas day accent, as I said, that you have all the resources inside of you.

I would go back to, this is where I would make rapport with kids and teenagers, but break rapport with the parents When I’m working with the teenager for studying test prep. And the kid goes, But I’m never gonna use this stuff. And I would respond, You’re absolutely right. You’re not going to. But that’s not what you’re learning.

You’re learning problem solving. You’re learning how to learn. That’s what the formal education process is, is about. So you’re probably not gonna have to sit down and do these a algebraic equations ever again. So when I hear you have all the resources, I look at learning as a resource, and that’s where it again, reaches a place where now there’s something practical to it.

I’d always have to go with the statement that the subconscious mind is a metaphor because point. Yeah, exactly. When here, here’s the actions and behaviors we would put into the categorizations of conscious mind activities, subconscious mind activities, and based off of research, these words are about a hundred years old.

Give us another a hundred years, we’ll have better titles. So I, I think that runs into the danger that as we look at these as models and constructs, now we’ve got something flexible we can work with as we label them. As some do as absolute fact and the absolute gospel. To expand the metaphor from earlier, we run into a bit of a challenge there, which again, we can’t quite duplicate that out of a training environment, as you said.

Yeah. A quote I came across the other day that I love by a statistician called George Box, and it said all models are wrong and some are useful, and I love. The model of, of the unconscious mind. I mean the, the term unconscious mind. I, I hate it. It makes my hackles rise and it’s only because I think that that automatic part of us is more conscious than, well, I’ll personalize it.

The automatic part of me, which is driving my car through peak, how traffic, while I’m listening to your podcast or whatever, I’m not focused remotely on the driving. I’m listening to an amazing interview, and the automatic part of me is way more conscious than I am. So to call it an unconscious mind or a subconscious mind, it just, yeah, rubs my, So then , I wanna use that now.

So look, looking at finding places within our work that are internally consistent, could you give an example of something that does satisfy that criteria then? For me, it comes back to, to be consistent, I just have to work with what’s in front of me. And I explain to my clients, I mean, one of, one of the things I’m absolutely a hundred percent almost religiously fervent about is that my clients are the ones who create the change.

And yeah, so there is no place in there for any ego other than I can look at myself and go, You know what? I’m pretty good at what I do. But that’s not the point. The point is that my clients have this phenomenal thing called a human brain, and that is the most complex structure, and it’s the most beautiful, sexy, powerful, amazing, creative thing that we are aware of in the universe.

And it contains potentialities that we can’t even begin to guess at. And here we are. We are able to introduce people to these capacities that they have in themself, and then they do it. And yeah, I guess one of the other issues that I’d raise is that when someone comes in with an. And when I am sitting there listening to them, that’s very much, and you know, we’ll use the accepted terminology that is my conscious mind listening to their conscious mind and hopefully my, the automatic part of me or the subconscious, if you must, is paying attention to things like their body language and, you know, all those tiny little or sometimes not tiny little expressions of communication, but very much often that that first session is still just a very limited part of me engaging with a very limited part of them.

And for me, that’s, that’s also an area of inconsistency in our work. It’s like we absolutely and rightly uphold the incredible power of the unconscious, the, the automatic parts of us. And yet we insist so often on driving the session as though we’ve got, as though what we are doing is actually anything more than just this tiny little window into the.

Yeah. So then a, as we would talk about, let’s put this into practical perspectives. As we talk about, let’s say some of the standard techniques that we would often use as hypnotists. Does this introduce a new set of techniques? Does it put a different filter on existing methods or what? What would be the benefit out of this remodeling model?

I think it’s an approach that you can use to get past the whole cross your fingers approach that I’ve heard, you know, and was certainly was a big part of my initial experience, you know, for probably the first two years of practice until I came across the arrow and suddenly found that my efficacy was, was going from 30% really good sessions to more like 90% really good sessions.

And I’ll take that. Thank you. But when you take this fresh approach to looking at things, The efficacy just goes up. Whatever tools are your favorite tools or your favorite toys in the toy box, you can still use them, but you’re able to point them in the right direction. And there are certain principles to the remodeling approach that come kind of through the Arrow technique.

The idea of always testing your work. So subjective units of distress is something that you do in pain. You know, that amputated army have got there. On a scale from north to 10, how painful is it? Oh, it’s about a five. Great. Okay. And then you do your magic thing afterwards. And on a scale from north to 10, where is it at now?

Oh, it’s zero. Fantastic. But you can do that with smoking, the feeling that you have, that you are a smoke. Think about how you, how do you feel about being a smoker? How would, how would you feel if there was nothing you could do to stop smoking? What would that be like looking forward and, and for the rest of your life being stuck with this, you will very soon get to the emotional content of the whole experience of being a smoker.

And you can switch that off. The same way that you can switch off chronic pain, you can destabilize the part of the brain, this assembly of neurons, if it is that, if my model, you know is correct, if it is that and you can switch that off, then afterwards, on a scale from not to 10, where is that feeling of being a smoker?

And they do the trans derivational search, the eyes, look around the room and damned if they can find it. And that’s, you know, the same for things like weight loss. Now weight loss isn’t just one of the things that Steve said in my training was, you know, weight is never just about weight, but I generalize that and say that most of the issues that people come with, Usually never just about the presenting issues that they come with.

I’d love to do a big detour here towards what For a time I used to call the chocolate biscuit effect because this was something that absolutely confounded me. One of the very first online clients I ever worked with was a woman who, in this particular instance, we’d dealt with another issue and she came back to me and said, Could I help her with a fear of public speaking?

Now she wasn’t wanting to do a TED Talk, she was wanting to get up in her workplace and it was an all male work environment and she had in the past been belittled and she nonetheless had stuff she wanted to say. So she wanted the confidence to do that. So we did some of the old approach, you know, the um, pre arrow stuff that I was doing, but we did some stuff there around visualizing and going downstairs and through doorways and into magic rooms and all of that.

That kind of thing. And she got a really good result. But when I followed up with her a week later, she said, What’s the story with the chocolate biscuits ? And that was my, my turn to do the stunned mullet look. And I said, I’ll make up a name. Judy, what on earth are you talking about? And she said, Well, how come I’ve stopped eating chocolate biscuits?

And I said, Um, is that a good thing or a bad thing? And she said, Well, it’s probably a good thing now. She was a very thin woman, so it wasn’t as though she needed to lose weight. But ever since she had been 17 years old and left home, she would comfort herself every night with between half a packet and a full packet of chocolate biscuits.

And suddenly, after working on this fear of public speak, She was at the supermarket one day and they were ringing up all her purchases and she had this brief moment of panic, Oh my God, I haven’t bought my chocolate biscuits. And then she relaxed as she realized. Oh, that’s right. I’ve still got that packet sitting there in the cupboard.

And so she hadn’t needed to buy them because she hadn’t been eating them, and she was kind of, Inferring that perhaps I had put some suggestions in while she was in trance that made this go away. And I said, Look, I had no idea you’ve, this is the first I’ve ever heard of it. That really perplexed me for a while.

And for, you know, for a while I did call it the chocolate biscuit effect because that’s, I started to see that with other clients. I, I’ve nicknamed a similar phenomenon. Residual tra effects. Yeah, yeah, exactly. The person who quit smoking and then later on goes, Hey, I haven’t bitt my nails in a couple of weeks.

Yeah. So of that . Yeah. And I, I think there’s a, an overdose quote. You never know how, how far a change will go. And I think that’s what it is when you, when you can switch off these underlying energies that are powering the things, who knows what else they’re powering. One of my favorite instances of this was a young man who contacted me and he was very keen to come to quit smoking cigarettes.

And he said to me, though, Is it possible for me to stop smoking tobacco but keep smoking weed? He says, I love my weed. Um, my girlfriend is pregnant. I don’t think it’s a good idea for me to be smoking 20 cigarettes a day around her while she’s pregnant, but one joint a day. You know, I love it. Can, can we do this?

And so I said, Absolutely sure, why not? So he booked in his quit smoking session. In between times though, his girlfriend decided that she didn’t want this stoner in her life bringing up baby. So she cut him loose and so he tried to kill himself. And two days later he is there in my office because the girlfriend actually.

Found him and more or less cut him down and got him, got him to the ambulance and whatever. But two days later, he is in my office and clearly we have more important things to talk about than quitting smoking. So we dealt with all that pain of the rejection and the loss, and that absolutely was a recapitulation of stuff that happened in his childhood when his dad left.

And then his mom took up with a violent man who at one stage threw him through a plate glass window. So he had a whole bunch of stuff in his system. And so that was what we had to deal with. And yet I thought, since you’re here, supposedly for a quit smoking session, I’ll throw in a couple of suggestions about smoking because why not So artfully vague.

I threw a little bit of that and as well. And he comes back for his actual quit smoking session. A week later and he’s looking quite long face, and I said, What’s what’s wrong? You know, you’re looking really sad. He goes, Oh, I’m still smoking. I said, Well, of course you’re still smoking. You’re here today to stop the smoking.

How much are you smoking, by the way? And he says two, I go two What? He says, Two cigarettes, , . He’s gone from 20 down to two, so that’s a 90% success already. And we haven’t really properly addressed it. And so of course I asked him, and how much cannabis are you smoking? And he looked at me with a puzzled look on his face.

And then he went, I’m not really, I went, Um, not really. What have you run? He goes, No, I just can’t be bothered. Oh, nice. And anyone else, like in the straight helping professions, they would’ve assessed this guy and gone, This man has a tobacco dependence and he has an even higher cannabis dependence because he’s prepared to quit the tobacco, but he’s not prepared to quit the cannabis, and yet he accidentally stopped smoking weed.

And that’s, Yeah. Now, I don’t call it, I don’t call it the chocolate biscuit effect or the Stop Smoking weed effect, I just say that this is just how the brain seems to work. When you get to the stuff that really needs getting at, which I think does mean involving the emotions, then that’s the secret source.

That’s where you get the amazing outcome. Beautiful. This has been phenomenal in terms of, I, I love a time where, yes, when we look at the techniques we use as hypnotist, we’re all at the core of it using a lot of the same concepts. Yet, what’s so much more powerful, I’ve found, is for people to realize here’s what’s underneath the work.

Here’s what has to happen for any technique to be effective. A and here are the premises of how we better engage our clients so we have the right information to best help them out. And this is phenomenal. I’m looking to seeing more from you on this topic and as soon as, uh, possible. Where, where can people best get in contact with you?

How can they find out more from you? Well, this podcast has been a great impetus and a kick in the behind for me to actually hurry up and get my, my new websites done. I’m sitting on the domain names, but there will be dairy cook.com and remodeling, hypnosis, all one word, two Ls and remodeling hypnosis.

Dot com and I will have them up by the time this podcast is there. I’m, uh, I’m making a rod for my own back, but we’ll get , we’ll get it done. Oh, the gift of bats production. It’s the timing we’re recording in early March. This is releasing in middle of May, two months is reasonable for that, so I’m looking forward to that.

So we’ll link to the, we’ll link in the show notes that work smart hypnosis.com, how to find out more before we wrap this up, any final thoughts for the listeners out. Wow. We could draw this out into another hour, but let’s not, I think for me, I went to the, there was this, perhaps some of your listeners have seen this touring exhibition of dissected plastinated human bodies that, um, I think this is called Bodies, the exhibition that has been touring the world.

And there was a moment in that where they had something towards the exit where there was a wall, and it just, they were saying, now that you are kind of thinking about your mortality and you know, what do you want to do with your life? And I suddenly realized what I want to do is to help as many people as I can, and the time that I have left, and, you know, I’m 60 years old.

I may, I may only have another 60 years left on the planet. So I really, at this stage just want to. Help as many people as I can directly, but also indirectly. I want to help as many other therapists as possible become even more effective because I wasted, well, it’s never wasted, but for two years I was only hitting about a 30% success rate.

When if I’d had the understanding that I have now, I could have been much more effective. So I am. Wanting now to focus a lot more, not only on my clinical practice, which I will never stop because I love it so much, but I want to focus as well on mentoring other practitioners. And to that end, what I offer people is a process whereby we can talk through what their issues are.

We can give them the, the whole process of coming as a client and going through the process and they can see. From the questions I ask, how I’m able to elicit the exact information that I can then feed back into their process to get them the results they want. So they get kind of two benefits. One is that they get the actual experience of how the process works, but then they also get some sort of powerful change that they might be after as well.

So in terms of leaving people with something useful, whatever it is that you’re doing, there are probably insights that you could have, which will absolutely massively empower your process. And perhaps I have time for a very quick, really bad Irish joke. And my dad was Irish and he, he, although I was born in England, he said that if you’re born in a pig star doesn’t make you a pig.

So as far as he was concerned, I’m Irish as well, so I’m allowed to tell this one, who’s a famous story of an Irishman who was a wood cutter. And one, one day someone said to him, You really ought to get a chainsaw. And so he went and he bought himself a chainsaw and showed up at the store a couple of days later and said, I’d like to return this.

It doesn’t really work. And the guy said, What do you mean it doesn’t work? And he pulled on the handle and the chainsaw. Chainsaw fired up. And the IR goes, What’s that funny noise? And I think to a certain extent, I was like that Irishman. I did my hypnosis training, I got this chainsaw, and I never knew how to start it up.

I never knew how to empower it. And now that I do, I’m in a much stronger place to help people, um, more effectively and get better results from my clients and for me, that’s what makes this the best job in the world. Jason, Lynette here once again, and as always, thank you so much for interacting with this program, for sharing it on your social media streams.

And I’ll tell you my favorite part of this was that this was never intended to become this ongoing. Living resource of the profession. So it wasn’t my goal, Let me say this politely. It wasn’t my goal to infiltrate other communities, but it’s where very often people will have a conversation inside of whether it’s the Mike Mendel community, the Sheila Grainger communities, the Helen might, or the Jacques as well.

And people start to answer questions with specific references to podcast episodes of mine, and not just the ones that I do, which are me on a solo episode, teaching my own stuff and talking about what I’m currently doing in my business. But to say, Hey, here’s what this person said on this episode you did.

Here’s what. Bob Martel said a couple of weeks ago talking about esop. So to look at how this has become this ongoing resource. So share it, put it into use, leave your reviews online and keep this conversation going and reach out to the guests as well as that’s something we do inside of the Work Smart Hypnosis community, Show notes and all the [email protected]

And once again, a free invite to check out the free ongoing on-demand presentation, Six steps to a six figure hypnosis business. Here’s a shortcut for that jason webinar.com that’ll redirect you over, give you the opportunity to sign up for that and start learning right away and see exactly what’s inside of hypnotic business systems.com.

See you there. Thanks for listening. Hope to see you all real soon, perhaps in Vegas at hypno thoughts Live ht live.net. You can see all the details and also learn about hypnotic products.com at that upcoming event as well. So much going on right now. Fun, right. For those listening all the way to the end.

It’s currently March 11th, and I’m listening, by the way, I’m recording right now in North Carolina. Sort of an interim stop on our trip down to Florida, which assuming by the time this releases on May 13th, we should be down there by then. If you’ve heard some of that story as to what happened along the way, nothing bad, just some little minor delays, but I’d encourage if anyone out there is struggling still with online sessions, head over to work smart hypnosis.com/now.

Online, we did about 10 episodes specifically on taking your practice online, which is what I’ve done a hundred percent with my business by closing down the Physical Office of Virginia Hypnosis. The world has become a whole lot smaller, and opportunities are all out there. You just have to make it easy for people to find you.

So get the details of [email protected] We’ll see you soon. Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening to the Work Smart Hypnosis Podcast and work smart hypnosis.com.