Podcast Session #339 – Jim Zboran on Perceptual Remodeling

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Jim Zboran is a Certified Hypnotherapist, Master Hypnotist, Personal Development Life Coach, and Owner of Entire Mind Advantage Hypnotherapy. He is a member of the American Hypnosis Association and Hypnotherapists Union and earned an honors endorsement for academic excellence on his diploma from the Hypnosis Motivation Institute. He was previously an ordained minister, retiring in 2015 to pursue his life coaching practice full-time. In 2018, he began studying Neuro-Linguistic Programming before becoming a hypnosis graduate with HMI.

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Jim joins me today to discuss perceptual remodeling. He shares how he draws out symbols from a client’s metaphors and how he uses them to help his clients change their perceptions. Jim shares his experiences as a life coach and how hypnosis has given him more tools to make positive change. He reveals how you can find solutions within the action avoidances that exist within your clients. He shares his experiences as a serial entrepreneur and how his greatest successes have come out of his failures. Jim shares why it is vital to be transparent in your journey and use your story in your messaging to build rapport. He also discusses what makes metaphors powerful and the power of echoing.

“ The subconscious is super powerful to solve the problem.” – Jim Zboran

  • The differences between translational and transformational hypnotic change work
  • Identifying a client’s metaphors and working within a symbolic landscape
  • The roadblocks clients have to avoid taking action
  • Creating feedback loops with a traction ledger gamification system and Jim’s Five Activities Workbook
  • Why it is important to include yourself and your origin story in your marketing and messaging
  • Using Clean Language Questions to elicit metaphors from clients that create transformational change

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Podcast Episode Transcripts:

Disclaimer: Transcripts were generated automatically and may contain inaccuracies and errors.


This is the Work Smart Hypnosis Podcast, session number 339. Jim Zora on Perceptual Remodeling. Welcome to the Work Smart Hypnosis Podcast with Jason Lynette, your professional resource for hypnosis training. And outstanding business success. Here’s your host, Jason Lynette. Welcome back to the program, and I am excited for you to be listening to this week’s episode.

I’ve gotten to know Jim quite well over the last couple of years, and my guest this week is somebody who comes from, like many of us, a bit of a rather varied background, but nowadays is someone out there doing the work of professional hypnosis. And really doing things interestingly, which is a big part of why he’s on the program this week.

You see many of Jim Zora’s clients are also in the business world. People who are entrepreneurs, people who are looking to climb the corporate ladder, and what Jim has done that I know you’re going to enjoy listening to. Is the way that he’s really set up a system in terms of one of the most trending terms that of gamifying the process of success.

So you’re gonna hear him talk about how to identify your client’s metaphors and then begin to work creatively within the symbolic landscape as to what they want to achieve. You’re gonna hear some insights about how to identify as well as how to let go of roadblocks in the process because, so, As we end up working with business related clients, one part of it is about the emotional stuff that’s perhaps holding the back, but the reality is once we can then clear that stuff away, Well, now there’s a clear measurement of success as taking action is a big part of that, which is why Jim’s gonna chat in detail about creating some feedback loops inside of the process to really create that traction, to really get that feedback in real time and really begin to move things forward.

We’re also gonna talk about how to bring your own story. Into the work that you do in a way that’s appropriate, into a way that Yes, is ethical, but also creates a way that draws people in to your messaging and your market. So chances are as you’ve been listening to this podcast series, we’ve been going out of our way to bring in some of these people, like Jim, like some of the recent guests who, many of you will phrase it this way, don’t yet know, uh, the people who are out there so busy doing the professional work of hypnosis.

And creating some outstanding results. And these are the stories that we have found. You know, it took us about 300 plus episodes to figure this thing out. the opportunity that these are the programs that get the most listens, get the most shares, as well as get the most interaction as well. Be sure to listen carefully.

By the way, inside of this episode because there is an amazing resource that Jim has made available to you to use inside of your own practice. So listen carefully as you listen to this week’s episode. Jim will share that exact resource as you go through this while you’re there on the web too. We have our next work, Smart Hypnosis live and online training happening very soon.

Now, this episode releases in August of 2021. And the next training event happens in October of 2021. I mention that because behind the scenes we’ll get several thousand downloads in the first couple of weeks as this comes out, but then 10,000 plus more over the next three years. So either way, if you’re listening to this in time, head over to Work Smart Hypnosis.

Dot com. This is our live and online interactive training, and once again, I’ve brought on Dr. Richard non guard as a guest instructor, which really creates an outstanding environment for learning hypnosis. Richard, from his background, focuses on an evidence based approach to hypnotic change if we’re going to be offering our services out there to the professional community.

We ought to be using techniques that have been proven to be effective in clinical trials, and that’s what you’re gonna get from Richard non guard. My whole approach to it is that your client’s issue is kinesthetic. No matter what thoughts, no matter what ideas they’re feeling, something. Which is why it kind of makes sense to do a rather kinesthetic hypnotic process, integrating hypnotic phenomenon, so your client can actually feel the results happening, and you get this incredible brand of instant gratification for change.

Now, these are a bit of a different description than what most people go through inside of a hypnotic training event. Which is why about half of our audience tends to be people who are brand new to hypnosis, and it’s the first training event that they’re actually taking. Meanwhile, the other half of people may be well trained on paper, may already be out there working professionally, and yet perhaps they’ve heard that we have a rather interesting take on this stuff and they’re not getting the consistent results they want with their clients.

Or perhaps you, yourself are stuck inside of rigid protocols or scripted techniques that if you wanna really. Creativity and flexibility in the process. Check out work smart hypnosis live.com and I’ll throw in the little side note here. Uh, Jim recently went through the event, uh, almost, uh, yes as a student, but almost as well as a bit of a supervisor role as uh, he also sponsored his two children to go through the event, a family friend as they’re now converting the solo practice into a family practice.

Literally speaking, cuz the whole family’s now doing. There you go. So check that out at work smart hypnosis live.com. If you’re listening in time, we’ve got one coming up in October. If you’re listening to this after the fact, we’ll always have another one coming down the pike. So either way, check out work smart hypnosis live.com.

And with that, here we go with episode number 330. Jim Zora on perceptual remodeling.

Might have been about 12 years old. I can’t remember the exact, uh, time, but I, I knew that I was gonna be an entrepreneur because, uh, I, I. Was perusing, uh, my dad’s library at a huge library of all kinds of books. Uh, and, uh, he had some, a little section in it that was, um, uh, how to do grad sales and how to, uh, run your own business and all kinds of interesting things to me, and, uh, really caught my imagination.

I’ve always been something of a, um, An individualist. And as my dad put it, um, I, I can’t seem to do things by the status quo. And it just struck me that the independence of being an entrepreneur, uh, you know, right, making my own hours saying where I was gonna live, what I was gonna do, uh, just really attracted me.

So there really began a lifelong quest, uh, really not, uh, I, I’ve been a serial entrepreneur, but not a successful serial entrepreneur. But it is in the learning from the failures that, um, uh, the Phoenix arose. Nice. Nice. Do you tend to find that it’s almost a different personality, uh, at times in terms of being that person who takes I, I’m hesitant to use the word taking ownership because there still is a taking ownership as somebody who is the employee of someone else, but it’s a different personality type that’s kind of required to really make that entrepreneurial journey really take.

You know, that’s a great question. I, I, I do believe at face value that that is very true. Uh, I’m not sure that everybody and anybody couldn’t get there, but certainly, um, there’s a different type of a personality. I believe my father was very drawn to doing his own business. Uh, I, I found hints of him thinking of starting it, but he never really did.

And I, I think that, uh, I’m a bit more of a risk taker than he was. And I, I lead with my creativity, so, Uh, sets me up perfect for entrepreneurial, uh, pursuits. There’s an independence about me. So, yeah, I would say, Jason, that there’s, there’s a, a certain personality that’s really going to do well, but I’m not sure that it’s not in everybody in some way.

But I would say that, uh, it’s, it’s, you know, if you’re not inclined that way, then certainly don’t be become that way. Well, I, I like the way you phrase that, that it’s something that we may have the natural inclination, but we can get there eventually. Absolutely. I believe that the same as, you know here is talk in the hypnotic profession about, you know, we’ve, we’ve all kind of dismissed the thing about there’s only this percentage of the population to be hypnotized.

We’ve kind of gotten past that one. Yes. Um, I, I would say there is some truth to that person as Sean Mike Landers would say, the natural virtuoso that. They’re gonna go to that deep level no matter what you do to some respect. Exactly, Exactly. I become more effective in my work though, if I approach even hypnotizability and depth of hypnosis and hear the air quotes on that from the same thought that everyone has.

The inclination it may come natural to others, but we can get there eventually. Yeah, that’s a great way to put it. That’s, that’s exactly how I see entrepreneurship. Not that everybody will want to go there, but uh, if somebody wants to, they can get there. Although, uh, briefly, the friend of mine who at 65 years old sold his painting business to his best employee with the agreement, hire me as the manager for the next five years.

I’m, I’m done running this. I wanna work for you the next five years. Then I’m. It’s like eventually , now hypnosis for you. That’s my way to do it. It was, it was so cool that he did that. He goes, You know what, I’m gonna hand this off to someone else. But, um, I think it’s about to his words, he goes, It’s 65 years old.

It’s about time I finally get a job. . There you go. Very good. Now you got involved with hypnosis also at a young age, right? I did. Yeah, I’ve, I’ve always been a person of many interests and, uh, I get that from my mother, my father. And, uh, in this instance, uh, my mother and I signed up for a, uh, community course.

It was like six weeks, I believe it was on self hypnosis. Uh, we used, uh, as a textbook, a book by Leslie Laron. Uh, it was actually led by, um, the father of, uh, one of my classmates, uh, going through grammar school in high school. It was a wonderful class. I learned a lot and, but I was, I was at a young age, and so, um, I forgot, uh, it kind of fell in the background as, as I got older and I kind of forgot about it for a while.

But, uh, I was really into it. In fact, uh, when I was a junior, um, in high school, I had this journal and I, I wrote a multi, um, entry journal on, uh, self hypnosis. And the teacher for that class made me rewrite them because she felt that, uh, I’d had copied them from a book. So I felt pretty good about. But, uh, I wasn’t too angry about that, but yeah.

I love hypnosis and I love the subconscious mind is what it really is. And I love the, the potential that people have that is just, I locked up, is kind of maybe the wrong word, but it’s just, uh, it’s behind doors that we haven’t yet learned how to open. Yeah. And, um, hypnosis is a great way to, um, to open those doors.

Now we tend to often bounce around in this conversation just so we can see some of the end result as much as we’re talking about the origin story here. So kind of bring us up to date though, and we’ll we’ll bounce around here. In terms of how would you kind of characterize the work that you’re currently doing as a heist?

Well, top of mind and center of heart, uh, in all my work is helping clients achieve, uh, transformational change that will, you know, put them profoundly and rapidly at their next level self so that, uh, the next level outcomes they want happen in as a natural outcome of that. So I’m really looking at transformation versus translation.

Translation would be changing a habit and then the person is happy. The habit has changed, but the underlying perceptions, uh, and metaphor landscape, you know, that’s making the self itself is unchanged even though surface gets changed. And so there, what it’s gonna end up. Happening is one of two things, Uh, or probably more, but uh, at least for this purpose, two things.

Uh, one, they, their habit changes and then slowly the transformation begins to take place as their, their perceptions change at a, at a symbolic level and their subconscious, or they’re just going to, what’s gonna happen is a translation and whatever was the underlying perception causing whatever it was the client wanted to change on the surface, uh, is going to pop up somewhere else.

There, there’s a great place for that kind of work, and, and I do it also, but really, I, I see that as being remedial work when I deal with the surface, and I prefer to do the remedies by changing the underlying symbolic landscape that the person is, uh, traveling to get to that place. Yeah, so does that, does that change then the entry point?

Let’s say someone is reaching out to you and very often they’re reaching out because it is, as you put in that translation issue, I’m procrastinating on this project. I have this habit I’d wish to change. Where does that usually now change the entry point of the work? If it does, it’s the same entry point because we’re really moving into the subconscious.

But I, I, nowadays, I go much more directly for, um, their metaphors and their symbols, and I don’t do that directly when I first was trying to get there, I, I would ask directly, but that really didn’t work as well. But, uh, I’ve, I’ve learned how to, um, very quickly see what their symbols are and those symbol.

Connect them in a very close way to what’s important to them, a deep downward, they’re not even consciously aware of it. And I look for those symbols, uh, that, that to me, that’s the basic unit of thought in the subconscious. And then those, those symbols are arranged in relationships, uh, that, that I call metaphors.

And those metaphors are then arranged in what I call a symbolic l. So my entry point is, is still through the subconscious. Uh, a lot of mys work, uh, is, is actually conversational hypnosis In the beginning, uh, I I moved from a, the, a social context to, uh, hypnotic context, uh, kind of in the conversation. And so usually there’s, there’s some fractionation there because once I’m actually going into a more of a formal induction, they, they’ve already been, uh, inside a little.

So then can you give us an example as a story come to mind of a client that you’ve worked with and what came out from eliciting those symbols, from those metaphors? Yeah. I worked with, uh, a man who, um, he’s a professional and he’s a helping and professional and, uh, very accomplished, a very transformational in his field.

He was getting very worn out in his profession and he wanted to take it to the next level. But everything was like a, becoming more and more of a struggle. And, uh, as we were talking, uh, in an early session, um, actually the first session, uh, it came out that he, uh, really loves motorcycles and loves riding motorcycles.

And, uh, he, he loves the adventure. Drives out in, uh, long highways and in in nature, back highways and things like that. And he loves, like the adventure. He never knows what’s coming around the next corner. And so there’s, there’s already symbols, uh, of, of adventure, of journey, not knowing what’s coming around the corner.

But then he said, you know, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s, I’m kind of not liking it anymore because now it’s what I call a grind. Uh, it’s like, you know, you get out there and I used to love being in the rain or whatever, but now it’s like a grind. And so now I, now I had some important symbols. I had, I had a grind, uh, which was a slowing down, but I also had the other side of it.

He loves the adventure and he loves not knowing what’s coming around the corner. And so, uh, I used those symbols. I evolved them to where he understood that what he was doing, his profession was not really grind. It was actually an adventure, and he never knew what was coming around. The corner was actually a feature, not a, uh,

Nice. Nice. Which I love this type of work because it’s where as clever as we can often think we might be to simply listen to the client and hear their stories and, Oh man, I’m trying to remember, I had a session a couple of weeks ago where the person actually did bring up writing a motorcycle, and all I had to say was, And what’s helpful from that in terms of why we’re here today.

There you go. And the guy almost went in the exact same direction. You just brought it. . There you go. Beautiful. Yeah, you know, basically when I got really good at what I do is when I stopped trying to solve my client’s problems and be clever, um, it’s, you know, when I got into, you know, uh, I was, I was doing, uh, coaching for entrepreneurs first, uh, at a cognitive level, and then I, I realized I needed a, a way.

Get behind the decisions and actions. So some people could actually do these things that were made sense. And, you know, I found this powerful tool of hypnosis and it was like amazing the results I could get for my clients. And so, uh, suddenly I started feeling like I had to solve the problem too. And I, and I kind of had to learn, no, the subconscious is super powerful to solve the problems.

I just have to give it the roadmap. Uh, kind of a model to follow sometimes and other times resolve some conflicts, but you know, the person is, the subconscious is going to gonna really solve the problem. So, That, that was kind of a, a key realization for, I, I really moved from being pretty good to getting some really good results for my clients.

I, I just don’t try to solve my problems any, my client’s problems anymore. Well, you brought up something there that I think you’ve heard me speak about in terms of training. I love the category of the hyphenate. Uh, the person who’s coming in already with one set of skills and is now looking to add on hypnosis on top of that.

So here’s the yoga instructor who’s now learning hypnosis. But you were there operating as the coach, as the life coach first. Yes. And that was so important, Jason, You know, over, over a number of years, I, I believe it was, uh, about seven or eight years before I, before I started studying hypnosis and bringing that into the practice, I developed a, a framework of self creation.

And I really came to realize I was struggling to help people really, to apply the strategies and ideas that would really help them to go forward. Some of my clients, they couldn’t do it. They were smart people, they were talented people, but they just couldn’t do it. They kept getting in their own. But in the process of trying to figure out how to help them, I, I developed a framework for how we as humans naturally self create.

And I realized that the problem is we don’t do that intentionally, but we can do it intentionally. And so if I hadn’t gone through that, that process as, as the, uh, life coach, uh, specializing in working with entrepreneurs, For their personal growth that would underpin their entrepreneurial success. I, I wouldn’t have had such a solid basis for transformational change.

Now, the, the framework broke down into as human capacities that we have for change. We’re, we’re, we’re, we’re, we’re, we’re designed or created, or we’ve evolved, whatever we are now as humans built to change and built to change for the positive if we want to. It’s just that nobody really, almost nobody really knows that, and that’s really what I bring to my clients.

But, uh, so those were important years. But no, once I, once I started studying hypnosis, boom, that was it. That I knew the tool I had. Now, now I still do coaching incidentally to my, my hypnosis. But my work is the hypnosis is my superpower, and that’s the superpower. I bring it to my client’s lives. Well, I love what you said about, you know, finding suddenly here was the thing that made the work better.

Here was something that helped to clean that up from that coaching side of things, You know, that was very often correct me on this. You’d get into the situation where it was clear, Oh, just do this, but clearly there was something holding that back. Yes, absolutely Jason. And, and, and here’s the thing, not only did I recognize, but I, but I did that so many times myself.

That’s, that’s how I, that’s how I got into this actually because, uh, I, I was a serial entrepreneur, but I had many work episodes in between because I couldn’t, uh, make a business work. So, you know, that’s really what got me into that coaching. But yeah, there are things that are clear to do and it could be even clear to the person to do it, but they just get in their own way for.

Reasons, their subconscious is protecting them for something. But it’s, it’s, it’s an old symbol and it’s an old program. It’s an old tape running and uh, we just need to evolve it to where they, where they are today. Yeah. Which having that skillset, having that understanding, and yet still standing in our own way, becoming that block, we can always be client centered.

Um, you’re hearing some caution and the question coming its way, , we can always be client centered. We can always be in the moment with our client, but we do kind of find in certain categories. Here’s the checklist in terms of what may arose. I think you’ve, you’ve heard my story around suddenly I had this referral source in Virginia for a while of, uh, gymnastics studio.

And when the phone would ring from this one coach, I’m like, Oh, great. It’s another one who can’t do a, a backwards flip in the high beam . And it did fall into a category of, there were three reasons why they had to. It was one of the three. Never a combination, oddly enough, but it just kind of informed this is the direction to go.

What have you typically found is holding back? Entrepreneurial success, knowing it’s always gonna be nuanced and specific. It, that’s a great way to put it. It, it is always nuanced and to make it more complicated, usually what somebody is coming to me for is not really what they’re needing. Yeah. Um, but typically the way I work, there’s, uh, a door that, uh, they’ve.

Built stairs to, but they can’t open that door to their future. And it’s not locked. But the problem is the hinges won’t swing because they’re frozen. And, uh, so I, my approach is to take their top three hinges and get them moving, and then that door swings open naturally for them. So those hinges are, are, are what you’re really talking about.

And if I was to. Clarify those three hinges. Uh, confidence is absolutely one of them. Procrastination is a, is a big one. What else do I see? Fear. Fear. Stepping outta the comfort zone. So, so confidence, overcoming fear. There’s quite a few of them, Jason. So, uh, probably the top one. They’re all gonna, okay.

They’re all gonna relate. Here’s what they all relate to. They all relate to avoiding action. And the answer to moving forward is action. Mm-hmm. . And each of the, my three hinges or whatever hinges I’m looking for is going to be an action avoidance strategy. Does that answer your question clearly? Yeah, that does.

That, That’s beautiful because it gives us. You know, not just the labeling of the problem, but instead also, Well, the solution is embedded inside of each one of those. Right? Exactly. Exactly. And it’s, and from there it’s a very simple matter to get them moving forward. Right. So then, as I imagine that it’s a matter of whatever their specific, uh, business is, whatever their specific goals are.

Yes. But especially now bringing action into that, do you have any go-to strategies, let’s say, for inspiring that. I do. Um, they’re, they’re kind of proprietary, so, uh, they’re, they’re within my programs. But basically what I do is, uh, I, I, first of off, I’m, I’m, the, the real heavy lifting is in the private sessions.

Yeah. Uh, there we’re changing the symbol, the symbolic landscape. Now they’re ready to do it. Now I want to get the, their neural pathways built to taking action. It’s just getting them to do something. Every day. Yeah. And, uh, so I have a workbook. I have, uh, uh, I have a, a way that I gamify, uh, taking action where I have a ledger, uh, that they enter actions in and they pay themselves and, and they pay themselves based on their income, but their income kind of juiced.

So it’s really interesting and motivational to the, uh, subconscious and the subconscious understands. Hands down the symbol of money in our culture. But, uh, so instead of giving points for doing certain activities, and they’ll define, and some of the activities are, are what I call neuro pathway builders.

So, uh, they’ll do those activities, they’ll pay themselves for it, but they’ll also write down their own activities are gonna support. Action taking on what they’re trying to achieve. Like, like for example, if somebody wants to get more connected with their family, well then they’re gonna pay themselves an hourly rate for every time during the day that they spend time with their family.

Good quality time. It, uh, gives points, but it does it in a way where they, they tangibly feel the value of what they’re doing. And it’s in ledger form. So every day they’re adding, To their balance and, uh, it’s a real dopamine, uh, a shot. It’s building a number of wins. So it’s, it’s basically a strategy. Now, now I’ve gotten to what I do.

It, it’s basically a strategy of small actions taken consistently in a way that there are many small wins throughout the day and throughout the process. That’s really cool, especially the, the accountability of that and the reward system and retraining that action of, now when I do this, here’s what it means.

Here’s what it creates. Yeah. That, that’s, you know, it’s, it’s, what I’m doing is, is I, I’m, I’m doing the work at this, at the symbolic level, at the subconscious level of where these perceptions and these actions are growing from. So I’m, I’m doing that perceptual. In the sessions, that’s the heavy lifting.

And from there, they’re gonna start developing new mindsets, new actions based on the new way they’re perceiving themselves and their place in the world. And it will happen slowly, but I’ve introduced in these, I call ’em neuro pathway builders. Uh, I, I’ve introduced these in, in, in five daily activities.

Is is a typical program go-to for me. They’re actually changing the shape of their brain. So I’ve got a combination going where I juice the neural pathway building with these activities to support. So there’s supplements to the real work I do and the real work I. Of course the symbolic work and their perceptual level.

Well, also something you mentioned earlier, which this is all over the marketing world. This is all over the business world, and just a few of us have kind of talked about this. Mm-hmm. from a hypnotic standpoint, could you define gamify? Sure it’s making some kind of a desirable activity, uh, fun by putting rewards to it, uh, and giving feedback.

It’s creating feedback loops. And, uh, what I’m doing with, with my particular, um, ledger gamification system is, is I’m providing them with a feedback loop. They’re putting down what they do, they’re paying themselves for it, it’s growing a balance in their ledger. Um, I call it Traction Ledger. And, uh, tee into our INTRACTION stands for Take Relevant.

Traction. And so when they take action, they begin making traction and becoming who they are faster. Uh, so, uh, gamification is, is simply giving a feedback loop to somebody that they’re getting little wins for what they’re doing. And it’s, it’s developing habit. It’s just, it’s probably pretty much like putting a button in front of a pigeon where if they, they pack the button, it drops a p of feed to it.

So, you know, it’s, its really kind of at a, at a very fundamental behavioristic level. . So then are there different ways you’ve found, you, you have a workbook, which is clearly. Part of what you’re doing with your clients? Yes. Have you found it’s, I, I’ll use the word sale, but using it not in the sales respect, in terms of instead selling the idea, introducing the idea.

I, I’ll tell you why I’m asking this, is that I’ve had the client, here’s the guy who came in and, uh, pointed his finger at me, which is always great for rapport. Yes. Um, and as he said, I am not going to count calories. Oh my. To which I just smiled and said, I’ve never, I’ve never asked anybody to do that here.

Um, and stuck my head, stuck my hand at, Hi, I’m Jason. Nice to meet you too. And he laughed and we were off to a great start. This was the guy who showed up early for an appointment though, and I walked by him in the lobby and he’s playing Angry Birds and he has beaten, Hang on, he has beaten every O level.

And from a professional myself, you have to keep playing the levels sometimes several times over. To get three stars. Wow, okay. Rather than just complete it. That’s the expertise, uh, . And as soon as I saw this, I’m like, There it is. And this is the guy who then without ever having to suggest it, you know, became the guy who was tracking things and like my fitness pal.

And now turns into a game. Yes. The one who would go to the gym Yes. And get on the treadmill, set it for 45 minutes and leave in 12. But now, Was found some app in terms of weightlifting and was tracking all the lifts and how every week it was, can I beat the time before? So with with him, it was recognizing that game nature was already a part of who he was.

Yes, exactly. Do you ever find a challenge of introducing gaming to the non-gamers? Oh, all the time. Um, I don’t necessarily use the word gam. You know, in front of a client, Uh, not as a secret, but, uh, it’s, it’s not really something that makes sense to them. I have five activities that, that I work. They, they work in concert with one another or they’re standalone and, uh, there’s a synergy when you do all of them.

Uh, they’re designed to take 21 minutes or less a day. And, uh, so it’s, it’s really a, a, a non. Issue in terms of time or difficulty. They’re very simple to do, and the gamification one is just one part of that, uh, one of those five. But yeah, there’s always kickback a against, uh, that. But, you know, it’s an interesting thing.

Even just yesterday, it started off a new client and, uh, he, he loved three of the five and he hated two. The other two. But you know, what I found is that having worked with him for a while on some other things in, in, in another program, I, I understood that the two that he didn’t like would be the ones that he would grow the most from.

Yeah. So I was obviously lighting up some dragons for him, which is kind of one what I need to do in my work. Uh, you know, just what we do, isn’t it Jason? We, we, we have to, we have to light up these dragons so that the neurons are firing so that that’s when change can happen. Uh, so it’s, it’s actually kind of diagnostic.

So I, I kind of wanna see what somebody’s going to do with it. Uh, so I understand what they’re gonna work, but. To do or not to do is up to them. Uh, we’re all adults. And, and here’s the thing, the real work is done in the private sessions. The workbook, which includes these five, five activities are supplements.

And it’s the choices between excellent results or more excellent results, you know, and so, If somebody just wants excellent results, that’s, that’s what I’m going to strive for, and that’s what they’re gonna get. But, uh, if they want more, excellent, the, the workbook is going. Those five activities, including the gamification, is going to take the work deeper and further.

It’s gonna integrate more areas of their life faster. I don’t really explain any of this to anybody in terms of, you know, they don’t wanna do or do it. It’s, it’s entirely up to them. It’s a supplement. Uh, and like any supplement, you take your supplement every day. It’s gonna do its work, it’s gonna, it’s gonna do some, but if you don’t take it whether there’s you, you’re still gonna get there.

But just not as nicely. Yeah. I’m flashing to, He’s been on this program before. I’m remembering the class you were a part of. He was in the previous one, Duff McDuffy out of Colorado. He dropped the statement in a forum the other day, or maybe it was a personal post about how, Oh yeah, here’s this one thing at the gym that I don’t like doing that move.

Yep. But I keep doing it because otherwise when I do actually do it, I get sore if I keep it consistent. It’s just a thing I can do and it’s, And it sucks. Less . Exactly. I, I read, I’m like, Oh, I’m gonna get this project done today. I guess that was helpful. Thanks. Do. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That’s, that’s a great mindset towards it.

And pretty much what I do is I let everybody develop the mindset. They’re, that they’re going to need to do those, they’re there to help them. It’s there for them. But, uh, yeah, they’re gonna have to, they’re gonna have to work and, and yeah. I just wrote out an email yesterday to somebody like he liked to, like I said, he liked three of the five.

The other two are the ones that, uh, Would most benefit from though. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So I wanna bounce back because you used the term that a lot of us throw around of serial entrepreneur. Sure. And it’s a challenge sometimes when someone hears this chat and they hear, Oh, Jim’s got an entire system. Here’s the whole world of what he’s doing with his clients.

What were some of those steps? Along the journey, which, um, you, you did say of them failed, Let’s call them learning opportunities, but, Well, I would say that, I would say that there are more, I would say like, uh, like playing the stock market or anything else. You cut your losses fast and you run with your wins.

Yeah. Uh, because you’re gonna have way more losses than you are wins. And, and, uh, I had way more, you know, I, I make the joke about the serial entrepreneur because usually they’re saying, people are saying that implying that they’re successful. Often, uh, for me, I, I was a serial entrepreneur, but very few of them really did anything, uh, in the early days and.

We’re really talking about four decades of, of, of, of a quest to become an entrepreneur. And I totally held myself back in, in every way possible. Jason. I held myself back. I’ve developed superpowers because I had to address these issues myself and I had to work through them. Uh, and it was a long, slow process.

So in my failures is really where. My successes today are coming from, uh, because they were really what created my superpower and helping people to become the next level person so that whatever they’re doing is their next level desire is a natural outcome of that. I had a, uh, a video marketing company and, uh, I was working with VHS videotapes at that time and I was putting together, um, videotapes to introduce newcomers into the community.

And, uh, so I, I. Highlight businesses and then highlight also things about the community that somebody coming new would like to know. And, uh, so then I would get sponsors for these local businesses for it. And, uh, I would have it distributed through realtors who would know who’s coming new into the community.

And so the realtors can hand it out as a, as a closing gift or for a prospect, uh, you know, thinking about moving into the area. Uh, that was really cool, but it was super duper. Capital heavy, and I had no capital. And so, uh, I, I’m very creative and I did pretty, and then I take risks and I did pretty good, but I really could not support that business.

Uh uh So, um, eventually I, uh, became a stock broker, a series seven stock broker, and then I went independent with it. Uh, got a broker dealer, uh, to, to work through and set up my own business. And that was good. Uh, just, I had to be in front of people selling and I, and I, I, I had so many limiting beliefs about myself, Jason, so much negative self talk that, uh, I just completely got in my way.

I was very creative and I had to be to work around a lot of that. Uh, and I had to have a lot of, um, boldness and risk taking to do it, but I wasn’t able to do it effectively in a sales way. Because I, I was spending all my energy just doing it, , Uh, and then probably, uh, uh, before, uh, becoming a, a life coach, uh, for entrepreneurs and then now a hypnotist.

One of my favorite ones was a martial arts billing company. And, uh, uh, I worked with, you know, these guys with martial arts. They, um, they love what they’re doing. A lot of them are, They start teaching because they just love what they’re doing. They wanna do it all the time. They want to support their hobby basically.

And, uh, they start getting students in, but then now they have to become accountants and they have to keep track of billing and everything else. And so, uh, I did the billing for them. I, they would, I would contract with them and they would, uh, contract their students and they would send me the information.

I would handle the building and keep track of who paid and who. That was really nice one, but, uh, once again, I had about eight clients there. That was really great. I could have probably had 80 if I had, would been able to get outta my way and I just wasn’t able to get outta my way at that point. Which two things.

First of all, one, thank you for being a business coach as someone who actually has run businesses. True as there’s a trend right now as to, um, those who are only, you know, teaching and guiding others, but have not yet got it themselves. But it, it’s where we’ve had that experience of. I’d be very open. Here are projects of mine that have gone exceptionally well, and here are the ones that became an incredible learning lesson.

Um, I’m curious to hear your take on this though, which is that as I run, you know, a pretty visible media business where here’s different podcast, here’s different projects. I have found a lot of the clients that I end up working with are ones who have seen a lot of what I’ve got and are choosing to work with me because one.

They recognize the power of, here’s the influence side of things, here’s the hypnosis side of things. But also too, they’re looking at doing something similar, but clearly in a different world. You know, here’s the contractor, here’s the accountant. Um, how much of yourself are you putting into your marketing, your promotion?

So they’re. Seeing part of your story as part of it? Well, more and more all the time, Jason. Um, I’m still, you know, working with my messaging all the time and, and it’s always improving, but, uh, I think that’s a, a very important thing to do and, uh, I’m, I’m getting much better at communicating just like I did today.

I’ve spent a lot of time studying and learning hypnosis, and I’ve, I’ve. Made a really a, a huge investment in both there. But, uh, the messaging is, is, uh, still working out. But, uh, origin story like we started with is, is, is important. Uh, so yes, I definitely put it out there, uh, because ultimately that’s how people are going to see.

If they wanna work with us or not. For, for me, I have, I have, uh, many, many colleagues, many teachers, many mentors actually, but I’m always, the people I’m putting around me, they have some kind of a genius that I see that I really want in, in my business, uh, or in my life. That’s, that’s what drew me to you.

That’s what draws me to anybody is, is I see a genius in what they’re doing. Uh, it, it could be in hypnosis, could be in business, in your case, it’s both. But I look for that genius and if you, if a person doesn’t put that out there, I can’t see. Well, thank you for using the Genius work, . No, but also that’s, that’s everyone’s journey that the messaging that works.

If you know anyone who’s been listening to me the last two or three years, you know, you can look at, yes, there’s specific strategies inside of it. Yes, there’s specific methods and systems that are there. Mm-hmm. , but it, it’s where if you own the story, Has been the theme of the last couple of years as to, hey, I’m the guy who just bought a building and then I’m the guy who got rid of it.

Then I’m the guy who left it all behind and moved somewhere else. But by being transparent and putting that story out there, I’m the one, you know. I know you had a small background of, what was it? What high school theater, right? Yes. Yeah. That you’re the one as the director telling the story and people see that connection.

So it, it’s, whereas we put in some of that story and I keep meeting people. I was on a call with someone this morning where the whole thing was beautiful website, but the problem, it could have been anybody’s website, the same stock images that anyone could find from any resource, and I’m just, they’re going is like, this is a personal service.

They need to do business with you. The, the process can be all about them, but I’m not, There was at least one photo on a contact page. And that ability to build that connection in advance, tell that story, because there’s gonna be people who align with that story, and that’s why I’ll call it out. We might be doing some of the same things that they’ve attempted before.

Sure. But now we’re doing it in a rather direct, effective way, changing that subconscious programming. But there may be a higher motivation because now this person gets. Yeah. And, and not only might they be attempting to do something we’ve done before, they probably have been. And, and if we put it out there, what, what you’re saying is, is, is actually one of your genius points.

Uh, Jason, uh, I’m growing in that. I’m not, I’m not a model of that by any means, but, uh, I, I think that is so important and I, the reason I think it’s so important is because, That’s how people are gonna know whether they wanna work with us or not. And if it’s just a generic thing, it’s gonna be a matter of luck.

But when you’re really putting yourself out there with transparency and, and including transparency of your journey, uh, you really give people a chance to, to, to get rapport with you on a professional level. And, uh, there’s some personal, and so people get a sense of, of who you are as a person, which I very important.

But really it’s, it’s a professional connection. And you’re, you’re, by being transparent, you’re allowing others who are going through that same thing to know that, and then to build rapport with you. So I absolutely, um, agree with you there and, and you’re the genius at that. And I’m, I’m learning from you with that.

But what you’re saying is, is vital to real success at the same time, making a real impact with who you are, which is, which is really what my goal in life is. And you did one of my favorite things, by the way, which is as soon as you said yes, and we scheduled this, you put together a resource for everybody, uh, to share.

Do do you mind if I share something real quick? Sure. Piggyback off. Okay. So this is one of those revelations that’s really come about a. From doing the train the trainer with Richard non guard or doing co-productions. And now I have to give a disclaimer, this is not , this is not about the people who I’ve trained with.

This is just the collection as a whole that you, you started this conversation talking about metaphors and the symbols that we use. And it’s that it it, it’s not just tell your story. It’s not just no, be transparent. It’s that we need to filter our stories in such a way that still have to ask. How is this going to be a value to the other person?

Absolutely. I, I’ve seen, I’ve seen too much of the, Oh, I teach NLP by telling you stories and no, they’re just rambling. You have to go inside of the story and ask what are the points? And it might mean you have to pull out some of the parts that were the most meaningful to you. Because they don’t serve the rest of the story.

So it, it’s where there’s a, there’s a strategy of collating those stories, but also kind of siphoning them down. Just the essential elements. Not for the sake of being brief, but to make sure that, Okay, so if I do tell the story, I said this before we hopped on the recording. I’m in a co-working space today, and again, best problems in life are the ones we invent because they’re putting carpets down in the house and that’s loud.

Sure carpet’s soft, but installing carpet is very loud, . Um, and there wasn’t really a big thing that needed to be said other than flexibility, but I’ve talked flexibility the last 18 months, so there’s no broadcast around that. There you go. Yeah. also, it’s like, I’ve been here before. It’s not pretty. No, we’re not doing that.

But to, to

go inside of the story and yes, hit the points that may have be beneficial to someone else, but if we can’t, yes. The technique is, You can always pause the story and universalize it with a rhetorical question. Yes. That’s a, that’s a great strategy for that. Absolutely. Yeah. You ever have that moment where you just realize the only reason you’re stuck is because you’ve been standing in your own way?

Oh, and as I’m hearing the pounding of the carpet , and we’re back into the story. Um, so, so collate the story, curate it down, but when all else fails, you can universalize it with rhetorical question. You put together a cool resource, which I’ll make it easy for every. Work Smart hypnosis.com/ 3 39. This is episode 339, so that’ll bring you over to the show notes.

Of course, it’ll be a giant purple button. Uh, what’s the resource you put together, Jim? It, it’s a one page, uh, two side cheat sheet that, uh, distills down all that I’ve learned about working with metaphors and, and not just any metaphor. Metaphors that will tend to create transformational change in clients.

There’s a lot of, uh, an ericsonian, uh, type of thinking in there, but it’s also involves a lot of other, uh, mentors thinkings as well. And it’s, it’s really kind of the, the, the cream of the crop, uh, that, that bubbles up for me, uh, at this point in my journey with metaphors, uh, to really how to create that transformation change with the metaphors that really come from and speak to the, uh, client.

Yeah. So could you give us an example of. What happens with that metaphor is we start to run it through the system. It’ll emerge with the, with the right questions. And there’s ways to ask the questions that don’t put metaphors into the person’s mouth. Mm-hmm. . And, uh, they’re very simple. They were developed, uh, by, uh, a man named David Grove.

They called it clean language. They’re clean questions, and they’re clean in the sense that they elicit a metaphors from people without putting. Words to the metaphors. And, uh, so, uh, it’s, it’s a simple level. 11 questions are the base of it. And, uh, and there’s a process. You, you start out at the conscious level, then you dip down to the subconscious, uh, with these questions actually turn you inward.

You get, you know, uh, trans derivational searches and then all, all of a sudden the person is inside. We’re now in a hypnotic context, even though it’s a waking hypnotic context. Uh, so it’s just, uh, kind of a, a five stages where we dip down below, uh, we start to. Explore and develop the symbols. And then from there we let those symbols evolve and then we, we come on back, uh, and, and, uh, apply it.

Um, so that it’s a simple five stage process. So that’s on the worksheet. The clean language questions are there, but also, um, some insights that, that I didn’t have before I started working with these. Uh, in, in that, when you get a, a symbol evolved at one level, it uh, will. Every other symbol that’s connected with it at a perceptual level.

Yeah. And that’s when you get your transformation. And that’s, that’s really what I go for. Uh, although I’m happy with translations once in a while, but the transformations are really there and I get ’em pretty consistently now. Uh, and so what I’ve put on the sheet is, is, uh, the key things that I know and understand about, uh, the metaphors, uh, that make them powerful.

Another one, uh, is the beauty of echoing, uh, what somebody says. Um, in, in, in one of the first hypnosis classes I took, they told you how to, you know, take what was heard and then communicate it back in your own words, to, to communicate that, uh, you understood what the client was saying and you, you, you were in touch with them good enough.

But I found out that when I actually used the exact same words, because the words they’re. Connection with their symbol is, is packed with meaning that I couldn’t even begin to see that’s personally relevant to that person. And so, uh, one, one of the huge tip for me was just echo what’s being said. And people, because we’re in a hypnotic context, people aren’t thinking, well, why are you mimicking what I’m saying?

It, you’re actually, you’re actually being a mirror to them. And simply by mirroring what they’re saying, they’re now seeing their symbol. From another perspective, and that’s gonna be the driver to changing, evolving that symbol. So tho those, I’m not sure I’m really answering your question, Jason, but No, I appreciate that.

And just for everybody out there, again, it’s work smart hypnosis.com/ 3 39 will give you that and I, I appreciate what you said about asking the questions in a way that reveals them rather than suggests them so important. So absolutely important . Yeah, that again, it’s where, well, there was a dialogue one time around, um, I forget what it was, but it was like some sort of hack around a spinning technique, and the phrase was, Well, because we are creating a metaphorical construct, it means we can suggest it, but once we have it that it’s moving when we’re using as a technique, I’m okay with that when it’s more of the personal representation.

Let’s be a lot more organic. And I’ll tell you, I really appreciate your sort of drawing that line between translation and transformation. That translation’s what gets the foot in the door. Mm-hmm. , but the transformation is what makes the original issue just not work the same way anymore. That’s great. It dissolves, it’s gone.

It, it’s not relevant. Before we wrap this up? Mm-hmm. question for you and just to tell a bit of a story and understanding this may be in the works, there’s another transformation of your business becoming a bit of a family business, correct? Oh, yes, Yes, Absolutely. Yeah. Can you chat about that? Uh, sure. I, I invest a lot in the people around me, and of course, I’ve invested in my kids’ lives.

Uh, my son, uh, Derek and my daughter Jackie, who are, uh, 20, uh, five and 24 now. But, uh, I homeschool them and, uh, my, my wife and I homeschooled them, and I, I have a very close friend, uh, Sarah who, um, I, I consider to be family as well, uh, who, um, I’ve worked with. Over 15 years on, on personal growth issues. And, uh, she was homeschooled.

Uh, she, she’s a, a little bit older than my kids, but, uh, when it was time for them to get their high school equivalency, I started coaching them on how to get excellent grades. And, uh, so I took them through, they got excellent grades on their high school equivalency, uh, examinations. Uh, and Sarah went through with it because she had never done her, um, her high school equivalency either.

And, uh, from there, uh, I brought them through college, uh, coaching them to become, uh, grade A students. Uh, all three of them, uh, graduated, uh, Summa cu Ladi with their bachelor’s degrees and, uh, great people, fantastic, sharp people, very closely connect with me. And so I started investing in, with, in them some more, in getting them, uh, certifications and, uh, bringing them out into my business.

And then my wife also is, is Golden with, uh, customer service and, and support. She’s old school customer support. Uh, and, and she’s, uh, had management position. So, uh, she’s covering my support end, uh, and, and she’ll be able to manage anybody who I bring in for support. Uh, and, uh, uh, my kids and Sarah are, uh, are, are support coaches and now their support hypnotists.

And so I’ve invested in them and, and, uh, they’re part of my tribe and they’re, they’re leaders in there. So, uh, it, it is family business. I. Uh, that’s kind of how we lived. I’m happy to see it growing to where I can, uh, bring them in with a, with a fantastic profession and I can, um, pass some of, uh, what I’m growing and excited about onto them and, uh, to make an impact, uh, you know, on people’s lives, but also to make an income.

And, uh, so I’m, I’m happy to be able to share, uh, in the financial rewards of it as well. That’s outstanding and incredibly inspiring. This has been great to have you on here. Where can people best get in contact with, Uh, best way to get in contact with me would perhaps be through my website, www dot entire mind Advantage, e n t i r e M i n d a d v A n t a g e.com.

And there’s a little bit about me. It’s, it’s not as good as it’s going to be, but it’s, uh, better than it was. You’ll get some in general information about me there. From there, you can find that there’s a contact form. Uh, if you’d like to schedule, uh, a 21 minute call with me, uh, you know, there’s a button on there to, to schedule that call.

Typically, I use that for, um, uh, clients. Uh, if you have something of interest that, uh, you wanna kind of get ahold of, network with me, uh, you know, you, you can go ahead and schedule something there and we can, we can see how that would work. But, uh, and then my email address is there too. So www dot entire mind advantage.

Dot com.

Jason led out here once again, and as always, thank you so much for leaving your reviews online, sharing this episode and your ongoing conversations. And uh, hey, I don’t say this one enough. Thanks to the thousand plus of you who have joined our programs over the years, whether it’s. Work Smart Hypnosis Live, which we’ve got another one coming up rather soon, whether it’s hypnotic business systems.com, which is an entirely a learn at your own pace online community.

It’s all about taking the skills that we have inside of this incredible profession, and quite honestly, making it even easier for you to get consistent results. Making it even easier for you to be financially stable as your own solo entrepreneur and putting yourself out there. Because yes, as always, the more we’re all successful, the more we’re all successful.

Hey, when you’re all out there doing great work as professional hypnotists, it’s spreading the good knowledge as to what we do and even helps bring me clients as well as hypnotic workers. I’m a guy who’s still out there doing the professional work. So if you’re not yet getting the results you want to, Join us at the next work smart hypnosis live.com.

Thanks for listening to the Work Smart Hypnosis Podcast and work smart hypnosis.com.